To ask for MN views: DH and I can’t agree on SEN school vs MS

[ClocksATickin]

DC10. Currently in a small private primary school but due to changes in employment, will be going to a state secondary.

DC has a diagnosis of ASD, high anxiety and is being screened for mutism (they have full language but is unable to speak to anyone expect a few close friends and nuclear family; not a soul more than this).

Currently receives SaLT and OT .

DC is compliant and masks very well in school but is explosive, uncooperative and demand avoidant at home. They have SEN support in school.

Academically meeting targets but has made no progress in social and emotional development and is behind in this area.

EHCP is in draft stage; we do not currently know the content.

I want to investigate our out of county specialist school who specialise in communication and interaction difficulties (ASD) and moderate learning disabilities.

DH wants DC to attend the state comprehensive which gets very good results, is high pressure and academic in nature. SEN support appears to be good but, I wasn’t thrilled with some of the SENco’s suggestions as it really felt they didn’t understand my DC needs.

I think DC would be happier in the SEN school as they appear more suited to DC as a whole person. Plus, DC struggles with things such as organisation, home learning and homework —completely refuses— .

DH feels that the loss of full GCSE avenue is too big of a gamble.

It’s causing a lot of friction between us and we have to make a decision.

AIBU to think I am right and DH is most certainly wrong?

[quote ClocksATickin]@Howshouldibehave assessment has definitely been agreed as our current school SENco confirmed it. We don’t have the confirmation yet as it was only a few days ago when I had last spoken to DC school.[/quote]
If assessment has been agreed then you should have had a letter from the LA to confirm this. I would check with the school that it is definitely the EHC needs assessment request that has been made, and not say request for an assessment by an ed psych. Speak to the school to find out tomorrow - if they say they haven’t done a request, do one yourself tomorrow (there is a template letter on the IPSEA website). It needs to be submitted urgently - it won’t be sorted by September now anyway even if it all runs like clockwork, but it’s possible you may have to appeal at one or more of three stages and each appeal these days can add six months to the timeline.

Someone upthread said that it’s hard to get an independent school placement - that’s not my experience here for those children who are academically capable but can’t cope with a maintained mainstream. If they need small class sizes etc but are academically capable, there isn’t a single maintained or academy specialist that can meet their needs so that’s where all those children end up. The LA are trying to address this as it’s costing them a lot, but the independent mainstreams are almost always significantly cheaper than the specialists here.

If you can afford it consider getting a solicitor to help with the process. DS has had an EHCP for 7 years, last year I engaged a solicitor to help tighten up the EHCP - my only regret is not getting that kind of help sooner. DSs EHCP is better than ever (was full of meaningless waffle before). Also private reports are usually far more in-depth than those you get from LAs, if you go to tribunal to get a specialist placement named you will more than likely need private reports.

This is going to depend entirely on where you live.
I spent virtually my entire teaching career in specialist schools. In my last school I initially taught teenagers with moderate learning difficulties. But then my LA decided they weren't going to offer specialist places to any kids other than those with severe learning difficulties. So every other child with additional needs has to cope in mainstream, which is frankly, absolutely appalling.

A neighbouring authority has excellent specialist schools that take youngsters such as your DC, and offer GCSEs, as well as having provision for the most learning disabled.

So first of all check what is offered by your LA. If they have no specialist provision that suits you're DC then you don't really have anything to fall out with your DH about.

If they do have specialist provision that's suitable, then absolutely push your DH. It's a really difficult decision to make, but if I had a pound for every parent who said "I wish we'd made this decision sooner" I could have retired earlier. Especially if I added the ones who said "for the first time in his life he loves coming to school" and "at his last school every day the teachers had a complaint or criticism of him. Here, every day you have something positive to say about him"

Neither is right. Attempt the mainstream secondary school and you'll have him out of school at home by October. They won't be able to support a child with selective mutism consistently the way staff at a small primary school can. There will be considerable demands on him from the environment - noise, numbers of children, being with different children in different lessons, 10-12 or so different teachers each with their own style. It's pretty typical for children who've managed in a mainstream primary with good support to fall apart within weeks of transitioning to secondary school.

An MLD school isn't right either - if he's meeting academic targets the work set in such a school will be far below him and the other pupils won't be an appropriate peer group for him - they'll have nothing in common as the basis to start a conversation.

You need to be looking towards specialist schools - likely to be non-maintained special schools or independent specialist schools (many will be s.41 registered) who have experience in working with selective mutism and ASD. [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-special-schools-and-colleges]

If the choice is between a rock and a hard place pick the mainstream secondary school, as if it goes wrong, as I suspect it will, it will give you useful evidence to support a move into a specialist setting.

We started DS in mainstream, then when things fell apart we went to look at special school. Unfortunately though as others have said, the gap between mainstream and special is huge. My DS is academically capable, but not able to cope at mainstream secondary. He's academically capable, so his needs won't be met at SS plus the environment just isn't right for him.

The best fit SS we looked at shared grounds with another mainstream and talked about popping him over there for some classes, so he would have all the trauma of a transition to then be split between two schools...

Our LA is now starting to establish bases and hubs within mainstream but it's too late for us. Presumption of mainstream has failed many, many children - a noble experiment that hasn't worked.

@HoldontoOneMoreDay how long did your DC last in mainstream before it went wrong? Where did you end up sending him in the end and did it work out ?

@independentfriend my concern is that you will be right . I am very concerned for my DC .

OP, is there a Facebook group for local SEN parents you could join? Our one is a goldmine of information about schools. We are in an outer London Borough and I have discovered loads of specialist schools in Kent I wouldn't have otherwise heard of.

This could basically be my just turned 11 year old minus the private school bit. We have now agreed to go with MS however we are still in the process of selecting our back up sen school. If he does not settle by Christmas we will be moving him to somewhere that can meet his needs. Should we need to do so quickly we will have our sen school picked in the next week or 2. Luckily he has a 25 hour ehcp covering most of his school week except breaks. His sibling is at the school and we were worried about how he will cope moving from class to class due to different support staff for different subjects. Thankfully due to covid they have been operating a one lesson a day time table and feel it works better so they will be sticking to this permanently which means one room and one support worker each day. So we are a little more hopeful. Good luck what ever you decide.

I am ever so slightly biased as I work in a secondary GLD school. We are co-located with a mainstream high school so we have lots of opportunities for inclusion.

If the EHC suggests that an SEN provision would be the best place then I certainly wouldn't rule it out. The smaller class sizes, higher levels of support, staff that understand the complex needs of all the learners are really beneficial.

My DS is largely mute and is happy in mainstream but it is a smaller secondary and very little bullying we moved for. I would say transition took 6 months and he did trial day at a big London school with some very loud, swearing kids and he came out and said I don't want to go there. Looked around and realised all schools there were similar so moved to area with smaller schools and quieter kids and that has worked. The teachers are mostly very kind with him and he plays football with the kids at lunch. He loses everything, tutor finds it and has homework exemption. Bizarrely last year he even managed to give a speech to 200 kids. But it does need a school that want to help and low levels of bullying to work. Ours thought they wouldn't manage but after a difficult transition for 6 months he started loving it, doing amazingly academically and they started supporting him with occasional TA, exemptions, sensory room built just for him, no homework, help with finding things and he is just him, they gave up trying to change him after 6 months as he was determined to stay different and now they admire him for it and let him be himself.

[quote ClocksATickin]@HoldontoOneMoreDay how long did your DC last in mainstream before it went wrong? Where did you end up sending him in the end and did it work out ?[/quote]
He's still in the original mainstream, albeit on a reduced timetable. The special schools were so far from right from him, we then looked at another mainstream with a hub support base but that was a very big and busy school and we would have had to fight to get him in.

We listed pros and cons - bearing in mind he struggles so much with transitions that 'moving' in itself was like two cons - and decided to keep him where he was because he had made a couple of friends. That's how finely balanced it was!

@sundaylunday

GCSEs are not the benchmark of a good education. I think it's really hard to get your head round that with children who have SEN.

You have to think, what do I want my child to be as a young adult? I want DS to be happy, understand who he is, what he's good at and what his challenges are, understand them and understand that he is different but no less - that's the only way he'll succeed as an adult and make his way in life. To NT children, this process is fairly easy and they can get GCSEs along the way. ASD children, not so much.

My son, who is academically gifted and was explosive and autistic was out of primary for 2 years as the wheels fell off and they treated him so badly. But we didn't understand the system / process - we were just constantly told, he had to stay in MS as he was bright. Once out, it was easier to get a SEN placement.

Now, he's not explosive because his needs are met. He's happy, stable, says he doesn't have to hide who he is at school now and everyone is 'normal' to him. He's got good friends and really experienced, solid adults guiding him but not babysitting him. His social communication skills and mental health has vastly vastly improved.

He can get about 5 or 6 GCSEs at this school. He'd get none at MS as he can't learn in the traditional way and his mental health would have broken. Hopefully, he'll move on to college later on and expand any qualifications he needs then.

I'd be VERY worried about a boy with autism and SM in a small private school who is exploding at home now. My first worry would be school refusal and out of education for years in a MS secondary.

This is a really wise post @sundaylunday, thank you.

"I'd be VERY worried about a boy with autism and SM in a small private school who is exploding at home now. My first worry would be school refusal and out of education for years in a MS secondary."

I don't know about this. DD2 (13, y9) has ASD, a degree of mutism, extremely shy. She had no friends at primary school and ended up attending 3 different schools and had a period of home education. Once in secondary, she got scooped up in a small group of girls and they've been together ever since, despite not sharing classes. She's often known as "Switzerland" because when the girls fall out, she won't take sides and remains friendly to them all.

We were lucky as the Special school DS goes to is aimed specifically for kids with Autism but no LD, they have a separate campus for students with MLD, and there is another school locally that caters to children with behavioural issues.

However, the school was very select, there's ony 6 places per year, and they get something like 30 applications.. while DS got in (Thank god) i sometimes think there's another 24 kids who have ended up having to try and cope in MS which isn't the best place for them :(

One of the other schools here has a 'six plus' group they do for yr7's with some transition issues, it operates like a hub within the school so they start with one classroom with just teachers changing, then slowly over the academic year they integrate them into how the school normally operates, with lots of support.

I'm not sure why there aren't more schools that do something similar to help students who might struggle with shock of the noise/bustle in a secondary setting.

@Lougle

"I'd be VERY worried about a boy with autism and SM in a small private school who is exploding at home now. My first worry would be school refusal and out of education for years in a MS secondary."

I don't know about this. DD2 (13, y9) has ASD, a degree of mutism, extremely shy. She had no friends at primary school and ended up attending 3 different schools and had a period of home education. Once in secondary, she got scooped up in a small group of girls and they've been together ever since, despite not sharing classes. She's often known as "Switzerland" because when the girls fall out, she won't take sides and remains friendly to them all.

It's not like for everyone though.

My husbands full time job is tutoring local children for the LEA who are out of school / school refusing and nearly all are autistic and selectively mute with mental health decline.

There will always be some children who manage but the hidden problem is the acres of kids stuck at home with no access to schooling, no appropriate setting and limited awareness from the community that they are there.

@sundaylunday of course it's not like that for everyone. And it doesn't say anything of the difficulties DD2 does have at school. I'm just saying that many kids with ASD do find secondary school a bit easier than primary.

I was a SENCo in a mainstream school with a resource base, for a number of years. The base was resourced for 20 students with S&LT needs. Increasingly, over the years, those included ASD. We had great success with some of our students, less so with others.

We were endlessly flexible, allowing time out in our department, trying to cater to the limited interests of individual students, working with subject teachers, varying the curriculum offering and so on.

I agree that, without an EHCP, which names a school, you will be offered a mainstream place. The EHCP will state what will be of benefit to your child and the school will have the responsibility of ensuring that needs are met.

When you have the EHCP, it’s reviewed annually and at that point, you have an opportunity to say if it’s working and if not, why not. The school will have that opportunity too.

My dd is autistic and mainstream educated. It was recommended she went to an autism unit but I refused because they had no track record of GCSEs - dd got straight a*'s! We had issues, she attended only 1/3 lessons by 15 and I lost two jobs having to fetch her from school but I think it was the right decision. She's at university now and they have been far better than school for adaptations, they vary too