To ask for MN views: DH and I can’t agree on SEN school vs MS

[ClocksATickin]

DC10. Currently in a small private primary school but due to changes in employment, will be going to a state secondary.

DC has a diagnosis of ASD, high anxiety and is being screened for mutism (they have full language but is unable to speak to anyone expect a few close friends and nuclear family; not a soul more than this).

Currently receives SaLT and OT .

DC is compliant and masks very well in school but is explosive, uncooperative and demand avoidant at home. They have SEN support in school.

Academically meeting targets but has made no progress in social and emotional development and is behind in this area.

EHCP is in draft stage; we do not currently know the content.

I want to investigate our out of county specialist school who specialise in communication and interaction difficulties (ASD) and moderate learning disabilities.

DH wants DC to attend the state comprehensive which gets very good results, is high pressure and academic in nature. SEN support appears to be good but, I wasn’t thrilled with some of the SENco’s suggestions as it really felt they didn’t understand my DC needs.

I think DC would be happier in the SEN school as they appear more suited to DC as a whole person. Plus, DC struggles with things such as organisation, home learning and homework —completely refuses— .

DH feels that the loss of full GCSE avenue is too big of a gamble.

It’s causing a lot of friction between us and we have to make a decision.

AIBU to think I am right and DH is most certainly wrong?

[quote ClocksATickin]@x2boys I will arrange a visit once I’ve convinced DH we should at least see it as an option.

I could go to the SEN school and feel it’s not the right fit, but having already visited the MS school and met with the SENco , I don’t think MS is a good fit. The SENco was nice enough but I just felt some of the issues I raised was a simple case of “well it’s tough luck, DC will need to comply” (not in those words!) .[/quote]
Have a look at other options ,there are quite a few specialist schools around ,the problem is the cost £££,s however in theory if they are the only school that can meet your child's needs the LEA should fund it , unfortunately it's not quite as simple as that and the LEA will argue for the cheapest option ,but have a look around .

I don't know where you live, but in Cardiff, for example, there is an independent school which is Mainstream but has excellent SEN provision

Having taught in both I'd lean towards the SEN BUT I wouldn't be making then decision without having the same visit process there. You might find that isn't the right fit either (unlikely).

Are you awaiting the draft of version one of the EHCP for your approval before it's submitted?

[quote ClocksATickin]@NoSquirrels Those are my thoughts exactly. DH feels DC needs GCSEs to get through life. However, DC can not even manage a shower without constant cajoling and help; I’d like to focus on life skills.[/quote]
Sadly, that isn't a reason for special school. Special school allocation will mainly be based on learning needs. If your child has good communication abilities, but can't actually use them, they will still be more likely to be allocated mainstream. DD2 is in mainstream. She barely speaks to teachers at school, but they get by and I email if there is a problem.

I think you need to consider that even if you choose the specialist provision it will not be a straight-forward process. Whether your DC goes to MS or your apply for a specialist school it is essential that you focus really carefully on the EHCP and you make sure you get input from all the specialists involved with your DC not just the school. In my experience you have to fight for specialist provision - it isnt as simple as choosing.

@starpatch @Lougle that is slightly disheartening to hear. I thought an EHCP would allow you specify where might fit your child best if the education authority are in agreement. I did not realise there needed to be funding available for it . It’s not going to be as simple as I thought.

I have a DS with a similar profile to yours, also diagnosed with an EHCP. He went to the local state (not a high pressure one). It was a disaster and he became a school refuser for the majority of the 5 years there. I tried to get him moved to a small ASD provision in Yr 9 but the LEA turned him down.

Obviously neither of us can say how things will work out for your DS with either option but I wish I'd been able to make a different choice from Yr 7 (he wasn't diagnosed until Yr 8 so it wasn't actually a choice).

Silver lining for the future - just in case secondary doesn't go as hoped for you both. DS is doing so much better now in college with support despite his disrupted education. Not something I could have imagined even a year ago.

I would definitely go and see the specialist school but don’t have your heart set on it. I went to visit one for my foster son which caters for children with ASD, ADHD and attachment disorders. On paper it sounded lovely and nurturing and I thought it would be a nice calm environment where the children would have a lovely time. When I went to visit I knew immediately it would be the worst place I could send him as kids were swearing, running out of classrooms and being followed by security guards, a lot of the windows had been broken, all internal doors were kept locked at all times, kids were allowed to lounge about the classrooms on their mobile phones etc. I understand it may have absolutely been the best place for some of the children there but I knew my sensitive boy would be terrified every day. In the end I sent him to a highly academic comprehensive with very strong discipline but also excellent pastoral care and he is thriving.

I don't think it's as straight forward as you think, if MS feel they can meet his needs you will have a battle on your hands with the LA. I would concentrate on finding a MS school that you feel confident will cater for his needs as a back up at least.

I think DH and I have seriously underestimated the complexity of the process

We’re doing this on our own with no prior knowledge of the process.

[quote ClocksATickin]**@starpatch* @Lougle* that is slightly disheartening to hear. I thought an EHCP would allow you specify where might fit your child best if the education authority are in agreement. I did not realise there needed to be funding available for it . It’s not going to be as simple as I thought.[/quote]
Oh dear, no. Usually you can tell whether the professionals involved are recommending special or mainstream by the use of language in their reports. Anything that refers to 'staff highly skilled in x' or 'x curriculum through the entire school day' means special school.

Special school places are so limited that they only place children who wouldn't manage in mainstream there, generally. As I say, DD1 is about 8-9 years behind educationally.

I'm not saying your child won't be suitable for special school, but your comment that they are meeting academic expectations makes me doubt it. If anything, you'd have to try for an independent special school, but then you'd have to prove that your child's needs can't be met in mainstream or state special.

SEN. In my experience, ASD kids and mainstream never ends well.

@ClocksATickin

I think DH and I have seriously underestimated the complexity of the process

We’re doing this on our own with no prior knowledge of the process.

The problem is that a MS saying and even evidencing they could meet his needs is not the same as them actually meeting his needs and your DS benefiting as an outcome.

My DS was out of school for weeks on end every single school year, a whole term and a half at one point and he was still turned down for a place at the ASD provision.

It's not made easy for parents.

I have been through the special school process. We had an EHCP from year 4. We had to provide evidence of why ms was not suitable and include reports from ed psych, medical reports and other clinical psychologists. It's not an easy process. The LA will fight it all the way, ms is much cheaper.

[quote ClocksATickin]@lostlife is there a threshold for special schools? What is it? I do worry that DC might not be suitable for SEN but is also struggling in MS primary .[/quote]
It varies from school to school and LA to LA. each school has a designation and can only admit to that threshold (place demand is very high). There are very few schools for pupils with ASD who are academically in line with or close to their chronological age peers.

Ova here, I've had a very similar experience. My ASD eldest was a refuser at the end of primary and secondary. Ended up with real mental health issues & trying to kill himself and now has an EOTAS arrangement.

I hope he will go to college in due course, he's now 15 but still, 4 years later he struggles with the concept of formal education.

Placing children in inappropriate settings is really awful. The impact can be life changing.

Gosh, we genuinely had no idea how difficult it appears to be. We naively assumed that when we have the EHCP in hand, we could merrily go on our way looking at schools and ask the LEA to accommodate

[quote ClocksATickin]**@starpatch* @Lougle* that is slightly disheartening to hear. I thought an EHCP would allow you specify where might fit your child best if the education authority are in agreement. I did not realise there needed to be funding available for it . It’s not going to be as simple as I thought.[/quote]
An EHCP doesnt work like that. It isn't really funding it is the lack of places

Those who say mainstream is cheaper for the LA- it isn't always. Special can be cheaper but there are not enough specials

My concern is that DC will start mainstream and then will not be able to cope and will have to move resulting in more disruption.

I think you should listen to your gut and weigh this up carefully. Things not going well for your SC could have a long lasting impact. It's difficult for our kids to recover when schools drop them.

You sound clear that that particular MS isn't right for DC. However it also sounds like a special school catering for child with MLD also isn't the right environment.

If I were you, I would keep looking at every school within reach, until you find a setting your instinct says is right for DC. Then, if the reports funded by the LA for the EHCP are not supportive of the placement you found, go to appeal and commission private reports to support.

It does sound like an ASD unit in a MS would be ideal, but I know not everywhere has them. Where is the closest one to you? How much of a journey, and how is DC with travelling?

Also, there must be other MS secondaries within reach? Worth visiting them, as you never really know what somewhere is like until you walk in. You might meet a great Senco and school ethos.

Good luck!

Which area of the country are you in?

There are very few schools for pupils with ASD who are academically in line with or close to their chronological age peers.

Agree but the lack of appropriate school provision doesn't make mainstream work.

I've two kids who fall in the gap in provision. It's disgraceful. There are thousands of children with no school because they are overlooked. They end up with no peer group, it's a disgraceful way to treat bright autistic kids.

Our DD starts at an SEN school in September. She's going in to Yr 7. There has been a 2 year wait for a place.

We hope that she will be able to do foundation level qualifications at SN school and at 16 she'll move to nearby college and have the option to sit GCSE's and/or vocational qualifications. There are options out there - it just won't be the straight run MS pupils get.

If the special school is for children with a LD and your child is within age-related expectations academically then you're unlikely to get a place there - phone them up and ask to check this.

@lifeturnsonadime

Ova here, I've had a very similar experience. My ASD eldest was a refuser at the end of primary and secondary. Ended up with real mental health issues & trying to kill himself and now has an EOTAS arrangement.

I hope he will go to college in due course, he's now 15 but still, 4 years later he struggles with the concept of formal education.

Placing children in inappropriate settings is really awful. The impact can be life changing.

Very sorry to hear that

I've seen a big difference in DS since school finished. The pandemic helped actually because it took all the pressure away. He'd decompressed a lot by the time college started and I'm so grateful at how well he is doing comparatively. It's only NVQ Level 1 plus Maths and English but he's engaging in a way I didn't think was possible.

I hope your son can get to college, he might find it a much more bearable environment and teens can change a lot between even just 15 and 17.

I have a very similar child now in y9 and he has stayed in mainstream.

The school in y7 said he needed specialist but there didn't appear anything suitable. They struggled at the start and where sending him home 1 day a week. I got that stopped and over time things have improved.

He really likes school, goes there half an hour early. Academically he's doing very well especially in maths and sciences and english has been better than expected to. He does miss lessons he struggles with and wanders but none he will take to gcse. I asked him if he would prefer a different school and he said no way was he changing schools.

The Ed Pscyh said for a bright ASD child academic achievement can be more important than for an NT child as they know they aren't achieving socially and she said it was important for him to be able to achieve academic aims.

But look round - around here the best option for bright ASD I would say is mainstream with ASD cabins but requires an EHCP so we can't get in at the moment. Our school has completely come round and head says he is adorable and she will do everything it takes to make sure he gets all the support he needs. So for us mainstream was the right choice, we did move to an area with smaller mainstreams if moving is an option.