To ask for MN views: DH and I can’t agree on SEN school vs MS

[ClocksATickin]

DC10. Currently in a small private primary school but due to changes in employment, will be going to a state secondary.

DC has a diagnosis of ASD, high anxiety and is being screened for mutism (they have full language but is unable to speak to anyone expect a few close friends and nuclear family; not a soul more than this).

Currently receives SaLT and OT .

DC is compliant and masks very well in school but is explosive, uncooperative and demand avoidant at home. They have SEN support in school.

Academically meeting targets but has made no progress in social and emotional development and is behind in this area.

EHCP is in draft stage; we do not currently know the content.

I want to investigate our out of county specialist school who specialise in communication and interaction difficulties (ASD) and moderate learning disabilities.

DH wants DC to attend the state comprehensive which gets very good results, is high pressure and academic in nature. SEN support appears to be good but, I wasn’t thrilled with some of the SENco’s suggestions as it really felt they didn’t understand my DC needs.

I think DC would be happier in the SEN school as they appear more suited to DC as a whole person. Plus, DC struggles with things such as organisation, home learning and homework —completely refuses— .

DH feels that the loss of full GCSE avenue is too big of a gamble.

It’s causing a lot of friction between us and we have to make a decision.

AIBU to think I am right and DH is most certainly wrong?

He is already clearly struggling hence the SM, masking and issues at home and that’s in an independent primary school. Having access to more GCSEs will be irrelevant if he’s too anxious to attend and his difficulties at school worsen too.

Can you not look an independent secondary schools, to be funded by EHCP? It’s often a better fit for those with SEN who are more academically capable and LAs will usually agree if it’s that or a specialist school as specialist schools are generally more expensive. I know lots of children in independent schools funded by EHCPs, often after a mainstream secondary placement has broken down by which point they are traumatised and school refusing. You would need to be focussed on gathering evidence that state mainstream is unsuitable though - any hint that you’d accept that type of placement means that is what you’ll get and you’ll have to go to tribunal.

My twins are only 4 and are profoundly autistic so specialist was a no brainer for us.

It’s very tricky OP. I have two children with ASD. The older boy is fine in mainstream. Has friends, academically able, school are very happy to keep him etc. He manages but his concentration is poor and he is extremely stubborn and his interpersonal skills need... work...

Younger is 3 and a very different profile but doesn’t seem to have learning difficulties. We are just starting down the EHCP route and the paediatrician who diagnosed him said he’d need a specialist provision but who knows how that looks.

the SEN school I think will be a good fit doesn’t offer the full spectrum of GCSEs

What GCSEs do they offer? So long as the DC can still do 5 GCSEs Inc English and Maths (and preferably Science), I wouldn't be especially worried, as those are the baseline qualifications that keep most doors open for the future.

Still, it's no good having a full range of GCSEs on offer if the DC can't engage with them and won't actually pass a full range. It's better to pass a small number of GCSEs than to fail a full range.

I'm a former university admissions advisor, for context.

OP I would suggest looking at the IPSEA website. They are an organisation which helps parents of children with SEN. There is all kinds of information from help with EHCP to the obligations of local authorities. Until you get the EHCP it is going to be more difficult.

In my experience the LA will try to push you towards MS. DD is in Year 6 and I have managed to get her in to a special school. This was without any help from the LA who tried to push me towards the local secondary which has 1500 kids and which would have destroyed DD. I would have home schooled her before subjecting her to that.

She has a rare neurological condition which means that although she is in Y6 she is already 13 but is probably working at Y3/4 level. She also finds socialisation very difficult and would not have lasted 5 minutes in mainstream secondary.

What is the current school like? I have a very supportive SENCO and headmistress at DDs current school and they really pushed to get her a place. We have now got her into a lovely small school which also has a sixth form where great emphasis is put on life skills and work experience with local businesses although there are some academic options.

I wish you all the best as I know how hard it is.

I wouldn't automatically dismiss mainstream without looking at a few different schools. My son has ASD and anxiety and has been so well supported by his mainstream school, we couldn't have asked for more. I'm not going to say it's been easy because it hasn't but I don't think it would have been any different if he'd gone to a special school. We shared your husband's view that we wanted to give him the opportunity to access the full range of GCSEs. Also, in all likelihood, he would never have been considered for a place at special school as he coped at primary and did well academically.

Independent secondary are very variable and expensive. There has been a massive free school SEN building programme of new specials to avoid independent and out of county.

Getting an independent place funded is hard and will get harder.

From bitter experience, I can tell you great GCSE grades mean absolutely nothing, if your child can't function or cope when they get to 16.

We have a somewhat similar though totally non compliant DS.
We want a nurturing friendly and non-pushy mainstream, as he is rather afraid of some DCs in his current PRU.

Don’t assume you can just pick-it will be a battle and in my LA, will almost certainly end up at a Tribunal these days .

As a senco, even if you as the parent want special, the child wants special and the mainstream schools say they can’t meet his needs, 9.5 times out of 10, the LEA will still name a mainstream school. It is very very difficult in most places now to get a special school place-there are simply too many children and not enough places, especially later on through the school years.

What level of funding have they allocated?

Have you got an advocate from IPSEA?

I will tell you our experience as we seem to have had an easier time than a lot of posters.

My DD started in mainstream primary, she was there for 3 years but we realised that she was not progressing even with a full time 1:1 and the SENDCo was not very helpful.

We decided to look at a local special school and we decided it was the right fit for our DD, the Head offered us a place there and then.

We looked in February 2020 and she started September 2020 and it the best decision we could have made, the progress she has made is amazing even with time out for lockdowns and class closures due to covid.

We had an EHCP from when she started Nursery at 3 she is now 8. Is there a reason you had not got an EHCP in place before now ?

Be aware that the LEA will turn down the EHCP the first time, this is a bit of a cost cutting exercise as they think parents will give up, they did this to us and we went to mediation (the quickest way) and they apologised and said that our DD's plan should not have been turned down.

Our DD has ASD as well as speech delay and other disabilities also.

Don't give up, please arrange to look at the school I think you may be surprised and it will put your DH's mind at rest, my DH was not sure until we looked around.

This thread has given us a lot of food for thought and a realisation that it is not going to be as easy as we believed.

I am pleased we posted

A few more thoughts because this situation really resonates with me. IPSEA are brilliant but totally overrun with people asking for support. You have to book a support session days/weeks in advance - check the website. Visit all possible schools - my son was offered a place in a special school - I wasnt happy from the start, he hated it and we went back to the 'not brilliant fit' in mainstream - not all special schools are brilliant just as not all mainstream schools are brilliant. If the special school is good then lots of parents will be pushing for their children to attend and you will need some good people in your corner - ed psych assessment, salt assessment, OT assessment and school will need to say they cant meet your DC's needs - just as a start. I wish you lots of luck - it is a really difficult journey.
.

We have looked at other schools but none of the MS secondaries here are suitable for various reasons. The one DH is suggesting is the best by far out of MS.

I will try to book an IPSEA appointment as we clearly need some guidance on the process.

Have I understood correctly from some posts that when the final EHCP is drafted, the LEA will approach the named secondary and ask if they can meet needs?

What happens if they say no? does that mean DC can no longer attend?

My SS has autism, he was in mainstream for primary and didn’t cope well and to be honest the school let him down and he doesn’t make friends very well and those he does make doesn’t stay friends for long, as well as not being able to read or anything, My DHs ex wanted to send him to mainstream because of GCSEs and not wanting him to go to a specialist school but DH wanted to send him to a school better suited to his needs and he ended up going there and he’s doing brilliantly, readings getting better, social skills getting better, they work on life skills and he feels like he fits in, I think if he had gone to mainstream unfortunately he would have been bullied and felt lonely cause of no friends.

@ClocksATickin

I will try to book an IPSEA appointment as we clearly need some guidance on the process.

Have I understood correctly from some posts that when the final EHCP is drafted, the LEA will approach the named secondary and ask if they can meet needs?

What happens if they say no? does that mean DC can no longer attend?

No. They would have to give reasons why they feel they can’t meet the need (eg that it’s incompatible with the eduction of the other children) but the LEA will just overrule that. If YOU name mainstream, parental choice means you’ll 99.9999% get it.

Even if you want special, the odds that you’ll get mainstream aren’t that different at the moment sadly!

I need to clarify I’m referring to MS secondary. If a special school says they can’t meet his need (already heavily over subscribed, wrong level or area of need etc), it’s unlikely the child will get a place.

Don't know if this will be any help, my 2 DD's have Down Syndrome and both went through mainstream school. They both got a couple OF GCSE'S not A* but the school and us were very proud. DD 1 is a August baby and she stayed on an extra year. However they were/are very placid
Am glad we made the decision to send them to mainstream school but I was a nervous wreck!
Good luck.

We went with a SEN school, i felt that MS was not the right place for him, they weren't equipped for his complex needs, didnt give me any faith they would be able to cope during a meltdown, or be able to handle his habit of bolting during them.... then there was the sensory aspect, i was there during a lesson transition and the NOISE was unholy, echoing around the school like an auditory bomb going off.. it would have overloaded him in seconds (it overloaded me!)

A couple of years down the line, i'm positive it was the right choice.. teens have hit and he is struggling again, and this is in an environment geared to kids with his diagnosis.. i dread to think how the MS would have handled it.

My arguement to your DH would be that academically, you can always return to school to get more qualifications.. navigating the teen years with a neurodiverse disability is a Mental Health minefield and getting them through that in one piece should be the focus.

If you are looking for your child to attend a mainstream school, then they have to give you that school unless the school says it can't meet needs and the LA agrees. But if it is not the nearest school that can meet your child's needs, the LA can withhold transport.

However, if you want a special school, the LA can decide that either it doesn't meet need, or that there isn't an appropriate peer group, or that it isn't an efficient use of resources.

If you can tell us the county, we might be able to help weed through the schools. Every special school will have a designation. Some schools will be 'LD' schools (cater for all learning difficulties), some 'MLD' (moderate learning difficulties), some PD (physical disability), some ESBD (emotional, social and behavioural). Having said that, DD1 attends a MLD school and in truth they take everything from severe learning difficulties, moderate learning difficulties, ASD (with learning difficulties), some physical disabilities, etc.

The other thing to bear in mind that if your DD is 10 now, are they in year 5? If so, that's good, because allocations are in February. If they are a young year 6, that's bad, because the special school places will be gone.

My daughter, who is now 21, has some special needs that we didn't understand fully when she was younger. She hasn't been diagnosed with ASD, although she certainly has some ASD-like tendencies. She has ADHD and some processing issues. She is also of average intelligence, is curious about the world, and loves to learn. She attended small private schools that specialised in working with students with issues such as ADHD, but we always (following the advice of professionals) pushed her towards the mainstream as much as possible, talking about her future and things like going to university.
In hindsight, I'm not sure this was the best course of action because she felt out of her depth, and she had some severe mental health struggles in her late teens. She is now in a living situation with other young adults with similar challenges and is not being pushed more than she can handle. She is much happier and we no longer picture her future as being university/career/independence.
It seems like it's often believed that mainstream is always the best option when possible, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I think kids thrive most when they are surrounded by their peers and people they can relate to.

I work for SEN. I'd go SEN every time as what I see from children who transfer from mainstream breaks my heart every day. In most cases, the trust between the pupil and school is broken as if they act normally (for them) it can be seen as disruptive and (however good the SEN provision may be), an MS school needs pupils to conform.

I'd second the "back to school" option for later in life. Remote learning is also a good option.

@Punxsutawney

From bitter experience, I can tell you great GCSE grades mean absolutely nothing, if your child can't function or cope when they get to 16.

Completely agree!

@ClocksATickin feel free to DM me if you need more advice. I was a SENDCo for 10 years and now work for an LA writing EHCPs