to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

It's great to all have different opinions but not to the extent where morality is dissolved. In a society there have to be agreed values in order to function and all this wishy-washy "I'm so liberal, anything goes" attitude is brilliant for academic debate but doesn't provide grounds for a consistent moral code. It's a very harsh world, sometimes softly softly just doesn't cut it. More's the pity.

I most certainly did not bring up pornography in Sweden as I know nothing about it.

What is true in Sweden is that buying sex is illegal and most of the country are behind the move. It's a much more humane place for women than most parts of the world.

Matthew Parris really is an ar$e.

Sorry, I can't be more constructive than that.

Exactly right about Sweden, Eliz. You can't just pick one bit of a country's policy or culture and tack it onto another - the UK just isn't in the same league as Sweden when it comes to equality.

Actually come to think about it the Swedish army and other parts of the government have recently decided no longer to use hotels that have pay per view porn as they regard it as degrading and harmful to women.

Everybody gets so tittilated by the sexy Swedes yet they seem to be moving to quite a different position regarding porn and prostitution and the treatment of women.

Elizabetth, I DO think porn is okay, what I do not think is ok is that some people are not taught properly about sex and relationships as a teenager and grow up with messed up views regarding it as fdirty and seedy or a way to make someone love you or a way to big and clever or a way to control people, etc, etc.

My problem is not porn per se, but sex and tha attitudes surrounding it.

If everyone understood sex was a totally personal thing, and ok in every aspect as long as it was totally consensual and done for the right reasons, ie personal choice/preference then the porn industry would be safer, and the few people you can seem to find who were treated badly (all quite a while ago from what I have seen) might not have slipped through the net of safe, fun, responsible, respectful sex.

"(look at Zebbidee wanting his partners to have their pubic hair shaved, I wonder if he does the same to himself, probably not)."

WTF! at what point did I ask for my partners to be shaved? i said i had no preference as long as they were clean. And FYI I am partially shaved... i can send you a pic if you want. Or would that be pornographic? ;-)

respectfully ZG, it rather sounds as if you're trying to humiliate and embarrass E with that remark.

That's two people who offered to send me porn or something similar on these threads. Norma wanted to make a porn movie with her husband for me and now Zebedee wants to send me a piccie of his pubes and god knows what else - the implication certainly seems to be there.

I was actually more offended by Zebedee's discussion of his various partners' genitals (really inappropriate for a man to be doing that on a mainly women's board - far too much like the dirty phonecaller scenario) which is why I tried to put the focus back on him. I'm sure you're right though that that was the intention of his remark, OBM.

Elizabetth, I'm afraid I don't see how it is unappropraite on a thread about porn, in which genitals, sex acts and preferences have been discussed for Zeb to do the same, male or not, if I mentioned my genitals would that be the same? or if I mentioned my partners?
Yet another example of your discrimination against men.

I don't think there are any examples of my discriminating against men. I've criticised men with regards to the porn industry because they are its creators, owners and consumers.

The difference between a general discussion about sex acts in porn and Zebedeee discussing his own partners' genitals and sexual prolictivities is that the latter is an invasion of privacy of the women he's talking about. Also (and I'm not saying that Zebedee is doing this) it's not unknown for men to gain cheap thrills by talking explicitly about sexual matters to women who don't want to hear about it - have you never had an obscene phone-call? So its best to steer clear from that kind of personal revelation particularly as it didn't actually add anything to the conversation. Also best for him to steer clear of offering to send photographs of his pubic hair to a strange woman he is disagreeing with on the internet. It seems like he had a misunderstanding of what is appropriate in public conversation with strangers.

Also I objected to Norma offering me porn so I'm definitely not discriminating on the basis of sex although hearing that kind of thing from a man is worse because I have been harassed and sexually assaulted by men (including obscene phonecalls).

Erm excuse me, but Eliz made a sweeping generalisation which was offensive to me. Of course i am going to try and refute it, and if she didn't believe me I am happy to send evidence. I am not a prude, and nor is it pornographic. I get no pleasure from that and am merely interested in correcting a severe misconception.

The reason we ended up talking about pubic hair - or lack of - is because you equated it to some sort of genital mutilation scenario!

And how is anything that I have said an invasion of privacy?

This is ridiculous...

I cannot beleive this is still going on, I turned this off a while ago.

My answer is - NO you're not being unreasonable to be surprised.

The discussion is going round and round and isn't getting anywhere.

I'm afraid I agree with DaddyJ in that you cannot say that something is showing something if you have not seen it yourself. Especially as quite a few people (who are not pro porn) says its not there.

Personally I have nothing against the mainstream porn which shows straightforward sex. I do not particularly like anal sex BUT I don't think it should necesarilly (sp) be banned. There should be stricter controls over the industry.

My personal thoughts on how this can be accomplished is to raise the age limit to 21 (for PORN not sex), We need a "police" for porn, an agency who can make sure that there is safety at all times. Maybe we can make all porn filmers have a certificate that is looked at every month (or so) if there is no ticket then the film can not be broadcast.

And to an extreme maybe we can get lie detectors in to make sure the woman is wanting to do what is put before her and that there is no underlying reasons she (OR HE) is doing it.

Anyway, I've had enough of the thread as it's just going in circles.

DaddyJ ? ?Particularly if one chooses to argue that porn should be banned
because gang rape is now mainstream.?

Not sure who is asking for it to be banned. Asking for porn to be banned is like asking abortion to be illegal ? it won?t stop it.

Maybe the focus should be on ethical porn ? animation perhaps, but people don?t even care that their cheap shoes come from child exploitation so why would they worry about female exploitation when getting their rocks off is so accessible and also strangely compulsive?

Must say, I read through the earlier link of Elisabeth's...about what happens in usual, ordinary hard core porn, and some of it did make me feel a bit icky....so did the reference to feckling/fickling (or whatever it is called)....

Whilst I agree with Xenia that sex means many things to many people and well, personally to me it also so depends on my own mood as much on my personal boundaries of what I would be willing to try, Porn seems to be a whole different thing....I suppose if it is done completely wht te consent of all involved, whilst I don't have to liek it, it doesn't bother me to much, as then indeed it will be fantasies that were fulfilled, possibly by the actors themselfs....however, if illegal actions, any sort of pressure, etc....are added....then no NOT GOOD!

However, still don't get the reference about the sexualisation of our children...it wouldn't effect them until they are grown up, and by then I am hoping they make the right choices.

Elizabetth may not have seen it but I have, and I'm afraid she is right. Double anal and the kind of humilation porn is mainstream, if not the most popular.

There was a study in the porn ad's in the back of magazines, film, computer, lads mags, games mags (it's quite easy to do it yourself if you are at the newsagents) and ad's double anal is very common. These ad's are also generally sexually explicit with genitals greyed out, but the poses are still very regognisable as explict and are as arousing - if not more so - than the images themselves by their titilation level.

On a personal anecdotal level, after doing some research I started to get spammed by porn (spyware and viruses are another reason to be careful about what sites you click on) one said this, "Let us fuck your girlfriend for $1000" and the another, "Yes we know it hurts, but we still want to fuck young girls up the arse."

MT me too with spam after research.

Matthew parris is quite an astounding idiot, isn't he?

OBM, are you really 15??

BTW, I am very slowly trying to put together a documentary re contemporary female sexuality, my partner is a community film maker, but not in my field so I am scouting for companies I could pitch to if you know any? My email is porla . wright @ msn . com (without spaces - just do that to stop more spammers)

Linda Lovelace's story is a sad one. I've seen the odd clip of Deep Throat but find it completely unappealing. I refuse to watch Animal Farm. It is wrong. And illegal.

Not in some countries - and don't forget anal sex (buggery) between consenting adults was illegal until recently

You don't remember what that study was do you, MT? It sounds interesting. The advertising gives a very clear idea of what is in mainstream porn and what pornographers are marketing to a their general audience.

And like I said if people don't want to take my claims at face value, I linked to the Robert Jensen article up there who has seen mainstream porn and describes all sorts of cruelties, humiiation and sadism that exist within it. As does the Gail Dines video on the other thread - she has seen a great deal of porn and describes the same things.

It is still ongoing actually

I think there is a wealth of data out there which makes it possible to find out about porn without having to view a lot of it. I think it's a bit of a weak argument to try to dismiss Elizabetth's position because of that.

There are some things I don't agree with in your posts Elizabetth, but I some points I think are valid.

It's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater here