To think it’s so wrong that if you have money you can jump NHS waiting lists?

[ImaHogg]

I have some gynae issues. I had a scan in September 2020 and a telephone consultation with a gynaecologist. I was told that I need a hysteroscopy with a biopsy and to remove some polyps.
Obviously due to Covid I, alongside so many others am now on a waiting list. I (and my gp) have chased many times but just get told they have absolutely no idea when my procedure will be.
I am getting problems from the issues I have and have had enough so rang my local private hospital to ask if they do this procedure (can not really afford to go private but I am getting desperate and wanted to know how much it may be). I was told they don’t do this procedure at this hospital but there may be an ‘alternative’! They would talk to the gynaecologist and get back to me.
They rung back to say they had spoken with the gynaecologist and he would be happy for me to have a consultation at the private hospital (£150) then I would need an ultra sound scan (I would have to have this done at the private hospital even though I have a copy of the NHS one from September, same gynaecologist), then he would be able to do the hysteroscopy but at my local NHS hospital - wtf!!
So basically for a fee of £2000 I can skip the NHS waiting list, skip the luxury surroundings of the private hospital and have the same procedure at the same NHS hospital that I have currently been on a 8 month waiting list.
So if you have money you can push back NHS waiting lists even further by flashing the cash!

I think that on qualification they should decide which route to take re employment ie private or NHS

I disagree with this. Firstly you can't sign a person up to a lifetime of indentured labour - they would be able to leave at any time. Secondly we would lose many excellent doctors at the peak of their skills. Thirdly new treatments, procedures, equipment etc often comes to private practice before the NHS and we then benefit from skills and training acquired outside the NHS.

There is nothing wrong with a consultant doing 6 sessions NHS and two days private.

The Irish system is more problematic IMO, because the boundaries between private and public are less clear.

I do think it is shoking how accepted it is in British culture that public goods such as health are considered the same as a holiday in the Caribbean.
Having different access to health because of money is wrong. Going to the dentist and being told that your child would wait at least 24 months to get the same treatment that can be provided by same clinic/same dentist the day after if paying £3000 is wrong. And obviously affects 'the queue'. There is a massive incentive for doctors to spend less and less time with NHS patient. They only do it for how much it benefits them.
I have the same problem with 'fast track' for migration at airports and similar. The fact that you paid extra money should never affect how national security checks are performed on you. I don't care if it gives you the privilege of sitting in your seat earlier than me or if your seat is bigger because you paid for it.

It is a way of thinking though. It is incredible how those who can afford to jump the queue with money would think it is totally fine.

Its not skipping an NHS queue. Many consultants practice both privately and on the NHS. If you think privatized medicine in unethical full stop, that's another issue.

@Joeblack066

We have waited 10 years for my daughter to see a psychiatrist, to no avail. I have used all my savings and she starts treatment as soon as her blood tests are back, following a diagnosis in under 2 weeks. I did what I had to do for my daughter and would do it again.

My son also sees a private but NHS psychiatrist. I'll turn tricks to pay for it if need be, the NHS totally failed him and us. I'd be dead from suicide had we not gone with this option.

@camaleon

I do think it is shoking how accepted it is in British culture that public goods such as health are considered the same as a holiday in the Caribbean. Having different access to health because of money is wrong. Going to the dentist and being told that your child would wait at least 24 months to get the same treatment that can be provided by same clinic/same dentist the day after if paying £3000 is wrong. And obviously affects 'the queue'. There is a massive incentive for doctors to spend less and less time with NHS patient. They only do it for how much it benefits them. I have the same problem with 'fast track' for migration at airports and similar. The fact that you paid extra money should never affect how national security checks are performed on you. I don't care if it gives you the privilege of sitting in your seat earlier than me or if your seat is bigger because you paid for it.

It is a way of thinking though. It is incredible how those who can afford to jump the queue with money would think it is totally fine.

That's the way the world works! Not just Britain. Fast track migration, you pay for your security to be checked previously - do you realise what's needed to get it ?

We're actually very lucky here, a lot of places are even more corrupt and no bribe = no treatment or even worse treatment in a lot of ways.

It works both ways. I've known people who are on nhs waiting list who have become critical and needing the surgery who have had it in private hospitals under the nhs.

It is about the nhs consultants working both for nhs and privately.

But if nhs only offer them X hours work then I don't blame them for taking on extra work privately. The system is what's broken. It's allowing the private sector within its hospitals through renting out space instead of finding a way to fund it properly as accessible to all with a totally separate private sector for those with the means and willingness to pay.

@obberthesyrianhamster, I suggest you check the rest of the world before you make this kind of statements about the world. It is also a very British trait to state things about the world that are factually wrong.

You cannot fastrack migration everywhere, because it is just not possible.

It is extremely good to be happy about the place where you live. I also live here and there are many things I like about the UK. I have also lived and studied and worked in different countries and I would never dream to say something about the 'world' that I cannot back up with facts.

So yes, I do realise how fast-track works and who pays for it. The fact that you allow private money in every public service does not mean it is a great option and that treating people different depending on their money is right on every aspect of life.

@osbertthesyrianhamster it's pure fatalism to say 'oh that's just how the world works'. Public services absolutely could be funded better by more progressive taxing in this country. It's also fantasy to think the UK is somehow less corrupt. We are massively corrupt in world finance - e.g. through illegal international financial flow - we lead the world in money laundering. We also have corruption embedded deeply in our systems of governance through privilege , and it's getting harder to hold those benefitting from it to account.

@NoSquirrels

We could all pay more taxes and stop bloody voting Tory as a country and then the NHS might have a fighting chance. Most people don’t want to pay higher taxes.

^This

@obberthesyrianhamster, I suggest you check the rest of the world before you make this kind of statements about the world. It is also a very British trait to state things about the world that are factually wrong.

I have 3 nationalities, speak 4 languages and have lived in 19 countries. 😂😂😂

I have a fast track in 1 of those nations. It's fab. I love it.

The UK is very corrupt and getting worse
www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/05/13/we-live-in-a-lawless-fraudulent-country-managed-by-a-government-intent-on-providing-opportunity-for-corruption/

Surely it's a catch 22 though as if NHS wasn't renting out theatres then NHS ops would be being done in that time?

Thus shortening the list & private patients coming ioff the list would also be shortening the list?

[quote osbertthesyrianhamster]**@obberthesyrianhamster, I suggest you check the rest of the world before you make this kind of statements about the world. It is also a very British trait to state things about the world that are factually wrong.

I have 3 nationalities, speak 4 languages and have lived in 19 countries. 😂😂😂

I have a fast track in 1 of those nations. It's fab. I love it.[/quote]
Then you should know what you said about fastracking is wrong. You seem to have been exposed to enough knowledge and privilege to get this right.

I have nothing to add other than to say make sure you enquire about pain relief for your hysteroscopy and consider having a GA, going on a recent thread.

Fast tracking is wrong to you, in your opinion, obviously not in other's as it's quite popular. Such is life, but carry on tagging me and making it all personal, I have this attached to my spam folder 😂😂😂

I need to go and check my drawer for US dollars. Travelling in July and it's necessary to carry some cash for, erm, oiling the wheels.

People vote Tory here and continue to do so. There will never be 'progressive taxes' here because people vote Tory.

I don't, but hey, I don't run things here. I just do what I need to do to get by as best I can.

for clarification, I enquired at the private hospital as that is where I thought I would have the procedure, I never thought for a second it would be at an NHS hospital.
Surely if I were to pay privately and then go to my local NHS hospital that is taking the time slot of someone who could be an NHS patient?

But you’re NOT having it done on the nhs.
You’d be going private, possiblly at the same hospital, not under the nhs though.

I have fast track in one nation. It took a lot to get. But now we have it, bliss! They never have the A/C on high in that fucking airport, it's always near to 40 degrees outside or near enough, nice to get out faster.

It is a way of thinking though. It is incredible how those who can afford to jump the queue with money would think it is totally fine

But what’s the point of having money if it can’t buy stuff? Why would I train for years then work my arse off if it didn’t get me anything better?

Im, financially, part of the squeezed lower middle class. I’ve got an ok standard of living but childcare costs mean there’s nothing much left over once we’ve eaten and paid the bills.

One of the DCs needed medical investigation a couple of years ago for something non urgent that was eroding quality of life. I did look into paying privately, but couldn’t have afforded it. Had I had the cash, I’d have paid out without hesitation.

Not if that means using NHS resources.

For all those eg sinkgirl, saying that it’s obvious from the OP that the OP is going to have the procedure on the NHS, it is absolutely not obvious. She can have it in the NHS hospital, but that doesn’t mean it’s an NHS procedure.
If she’s been quoted £2000, and the initial consultation is £150, then it’s definitely not an NHS procedure. The ultrasound scan will probably be another £200 ish, leaving £1600 to pay for the actual procedure. Some of that will go to the consultant, some to the hospital.
It’s also worth pointing out that hardly any consultants are working part-time in the NHS in order to fill their time with private work. They nearly all work full time (++) and do the private work in addition to that.
Bear in mind that the vast majority of doctors are not working 9-5, Mon-Fri jobs. They may be free to do a private procedure on a Tuesday afternoon because they’ve been on call and doing ward rounds for 48 hours over the weekend, or worked some nights in the week.

that you can sometimes also get around NHS treatment delays by having treatment privately and having the cost charged back to the NHS

You can’t do this but the NHS may choose to send patients privately to reduce their waiting lists.

I had a new knee privately 4 weeks ago, on the day (in a private hospital on a Saturday) there was 3 private plus 2 nhs being done. I choose to pay huge premiums to my health company to be able to access this. It needed doing so by paying I've cleared a space for someone else on the NHS. different people have different priorities - we struggled to get our ASD son 'labelled' the waiting list was 3 years at that point, private medical didn't cover it so we didn't have a holiday / treats / go out / clothes one year and paid to see someone privately. £2.5 k later we had the 'label' and used that to get the right support at school.

@notapizzaeater

I had a new knee privately 4 weeks ago, on the day (in a private hospital on a Saturday) there was 3 private plus 2 nhs being done. I choose to pay huge premiums to my health company to be able to access this. It needed doing so by paying I've cleared a space for someone else on the NHS. different people have different priorities - we struggled to get our ASD son 'labelled' the waiting list was 3 years at that point, private medical didn't cover it so we didn't have a holiday / treats / go out / clothes one year and paid to see someone privately. £2.5 k later we had the 'label' and used that to get the right support at school.

Our son has an autism diagnosis on the NHS but has two co-morbidities we had to go private to get diagnosed. We then had a shit GP who refused to accept this, so we got rid of him, too. The way our social worker sees it, we save the NHS money by going private for our son. Too right.

Surely it's a catch 22 though as if NHS wasn't renting out theatres then NHS ops would be being done in that time?

NHS may not be able to afford the staff to have every theatre going full pelt all the time.

Mmmmm this sounds odd,I wonder if he's checked with the demand and capaity planners at the hospital, this is what DH does for a living, problems with supply of services are as much to do with physical capacity of space (i.e. theatres, consulting rooms, equipment) as it is to do with the capacity of clinical staff.

Lots of hospitals are utilising private provider capacity at scale (which is nothing new). But find it odd he's doing it at an NHS site. Surpised they don't do it, near hear we have a Nuffield , a Spire and BUPA and they all do Gyne ops.

You may be quicker though OP at Xmas my Dad was told end of 2021 at the earliest for an op he needed, then he randomley got a letter from the hospital saying it was going to be perormed at Spire in April, he had it done a few weeks ago there.