To think it’s so wrong that if you have money you can jump NHS waiting lists?

[ImaHogg]

I have some gynae issues. I had a scan in September 2020 and a telephone consultation with a gynaecologist. I was told that I need a hysteroscopy with a biopsy and to remove some polyps.
Obviously due to Covid I, alongside so many others am now on a waiting list. I (and my gp) have chased many times but just get told they have absolutely no idea when my procedure will be.
I am getting problems from the issues I have and have had enough so rang my local private hospital to ask if they do this procedure (can not really afford to go private but I am getting desperate and wanted to know how much it may be). I was told they don’t do this procedure at this hospital but there may be an ‘alternative’! They would talk to the gynaecologist and get back to me.
They rung back to say they had spoken with the gynaecologist and he would be happy for me to have a consultation at the private hospital (£150) then I would need an ultra sound scan (I would have to have this done at the private hospital even though I have a copy of the NHS one from September, same gynaecologist), then he would be able to do the hysteroscopy but at my local NHS hospital - wtf!!
So basically for a fee of £2000 I can skip the NHS waiting list, skip the luxury surroundings of the private hospital and have the same procedure at the same NHS hospital that I have currently been on a 8 month waiting list.
So if you have money you can push back NHS waiting lists even further by flashing the cash!

this both diverst money out of the NHS system

How so? We are still paying thousands of pounds in taxes, and not using them. We go to a private GP, a private dentist, etc etc. It's just different revenue streams. The NHS still "earns" money from all the patients it manages to treat, and there will never be a lack of those.

@Adventureswith

I hate that consultants do this. Train and work in the NHS then make themselves unavailable for half a week to work privately. I know some won’t do private work out of principal. And they’re far from poor becuase of it.

DDs consultant would love to be able to more NHS work, but they won't fund him. Her 6 monthly checkup - well before Covid) was bumped seven times, and was finally scheduled 2.5 years late. His waiting list pre-covid was at least 2 years for an initial NHS appointment for this particular condition.

Surely you know how the health system in this country works?

Within NHS hospitals there are private wings. Some doctors have both NHS and private practices. If you need to be seen quickly and can afford to pay/have health insurance you can be referred over to their private practice.

A private appointment does not take an NHS appointment from another person, arguably it frees up an NHS appointment for someone which not afford to pay.

There are issues. If there is less consultant time at NHS hospitals as they are working privately. If they are operating at NHS hospitals, as you seem to be saying, then, yes, they are using NHS resources which should be used just for NHS patients.

My mum paid for a private consultation a few years ago for something. The quote for the treatment was high, so she said she would have it done on the NHS. Her consultant said he wouldn’t put her on the waiting list until she was at the point she would have entered it without a private consultation.
Made sense, although annoying to have lost the money on the private consultation, otherwise everyone would pay a couple of hundred quid and skip to the top of the list. We have just lived through a pandemic, it’s understandable there will be an impact on the nhs for years.

I had DC privately in order to get an elective CS. But the CS took place in a operating theatre of an NHS hospital. That's the same thing isn't it?

If there wasn't a private system with people prepared to pay for treatment, then the NHS queue would be longer.

I'm sorry I think this is shocking. It provides a clear incentive for consultants to go part-time to earn more money which means there are few NHS consultant hours. Allowing them to use NHS resources actually incentivises this practice. I have only used the NHS in Scotland and have never heard of this.

It's only as immoral as some people being able to pay for private education, surely?

@SinkGirl

” She isn’t “going private”. She’s going for a private consultation and ultrasound and then getting bumped up the consultant’s NHS list.”

That wasn’t actually very clear. It sounds like OP is still paying for the surgery which means she isn’t on the NHS. I think she’s essentially renting their services.
My local NHS trust relies on income from their private ward but - quite rightly - it was closed and used for NHS patients during the pandemic. This has been an enormous hit financially.

My daughter is waiting for braces- 15 month NHS waiting list or I can pay £3k and she'd have them fitted next week- same principle.

This isn't a new thing- there's a reason people pay for healthcare/to go private and this is the main one!

@BigWoollyJumpers

this both diverst money out of the NHS system

How so? We are still paying thousands of pounds in taxes, and not using them. We go to a private GP, a private dentist, etc etc. It's just different revenue streams. The NHS still "earns" money from all the patients it manages to treat, and there will never be a lack of those.

What we need is a properly funded NHS, not a privileged few happy to see it run down because they can pay overinflated private prices.

You will not jump the NHS waiting list. You will just join it sooner.

I deal with a waiting list of over 3000 patients. I literally decide when people have their surgery. We have plenty of patients on that list who thought they would be operated on sooner if they went private in the initial scanning / diagnostic stages. They are very disappointed to find out that isn’t the case. You’ll get to see a consultant sooner. You’ll get to have your scans sooner. As soon as you hit the NHS you’ll wait like everyone else.

@ImaHogg

I have some gynae issues. I had a scan in September 2020 and a telephone consultation with a gynaecologist. I was told that I need a hysteroscopy with a biopsy and to remove some polyps. Obviously due to Covid I, alongside so many others am now on a waiting list. I (and my gp) have chased many times but just get told they have absolutely no idea when my procedure will be. I am getting problems from the issues I have and have had enough so rang my local private hospital to ask if they do this procedure (can not really afford to go private but I am getting desperate and wanted to know how much it may be). I was told they don’t do this procedure at this hospital but there may be an ‘alternative’! They would talk to the gynaecologist and get back to me. They rung back to say they had spoken with the gynaecologist and he would be happy for me to have a consultation at the private hospital (£150) then I would need an ultra sound scan (I would have to have this done at the private hospital even though I have a copy of the NHS one from September, same gynaecologist), then he would be able to do the hysteroscopy but at my local NHS hospital - wtf!! So basically for a fee of £2000 I can skip the NHS waiting list, skip the luxury surroundings of the private hospital and have the same procedure at the same NHS hospital that I have currently been on a 8 month waiting list. So if you have money you can push back NHS waiting lists even further by flashing the cash!

If the initial appointment is £150, then assuming the £2k figure including paying for the operation itself, and not being bumped up the queue? As has been said, NHS hospitals have a revenue stream from private ops, it makes zero financial sense for a private hospital to have equipment for a wide array of requirements as a huge NHS hospital would have; and similarly it doesn't make sense for an NHS hospital to have an empty theatre (they don't always have the staff, particularly at weekends they are often empty) when it could be making a bit of £££.

Of course it's unfair in a sense that just because someone has money they can access healthcare a lot quicker, but that's the same for a lot of things; and you're removing yourself from the NHS list effectively which moves someone else up the queue.

You absolutely can go private for your consultation and then be bumped up the consultants NHS list, I'm surprised people think this doesn't happen. I know loads of people who have done it

@breathhold

I'm sorry I think this is shocking. It provides a clear incentive for consultants to go part-time to earn more money which means there are few NHS consultant hours. Allowing them to use NHS resources actually incentivises this practice. I have only used the NHS in Scotland and have never heard of this.

Most private consultants don’t work part time. They do their private work in evenings and weekends. If the NHS isn’t offering surgery on the weekend but they have someone willing to pay to rent it, they generate income. My local NHS trust relies on income from their private ward but - quite rightly - it was closed and used for NHS patients during the pandemic. The lack of money from the private sector has had a direct impact on the NHS care.

That wasn’t actually very clear. It sounds like OP is still paying for the surgery which means she isn’t on the NHS. I think she’s essentially renting their services.

No she isn’t. The surgery will be the same NHS surgery, funded by the NHS and in the same hospital, only difference is she will get it sooner because she’s essentially paid to be bumped up the NHS list

I sort of did this myself many years ago when I was first diagnosed with endometriosis and on enough morphine to kill most people. I didn’t feel good about it, but for the cost of a private consultation (about £200) I was put on the list of an NHS endo specialist rather than my local gynae, as my GP had refused to refer me.

There’s plenty you can do if you can afford it and it doesn’t necessarily mean paying for private surgery.

@ImaHogg

For clarification, I enquired at the private hospital as that is where I thought I would have the procedure, I never thought for a second it would be at an NHS hospital. Surely if I were to pay privately and then go to my local NHS hospital that is taking the time slot of someone who could be an NHS patient?

No.

I'm a Dr in the NHS (though not a surgeon). I'm only allowed to do a certain number of hours per week for the NHS, but I could work privately outside of that.

At our hospital, they rent out theatres to private surgeons as a way of making money. Those theatres would be empty regardless, we only have capacity to use X number at a time in each area of the hospital.

A private surgeon, doing a private surgery is using a rented theatre and privately paid for nurses. They are reducing the NHS waiting list.

I think the private healthcare companies should make it clearer when people sign up how the system works.

Every time I've been in hospital, there have been private patients grumbling that they are in an NHS facility, getting the same food and treatment as the rest of us.

I used to have private health care through a previous employer. I was having gynae issues. I went through my BUPA insurance. I saw the consultant at the private hospital. I needed an ultrasound which I had at a NHS hospital. I then had my laparoscopy at the private hospital. My follow up consultation was at the private hospital.

Money talks.

I cancelled a “private” patient last Friday as a more urgent patient came in through A&E.

He was furious, hurled a load of abuse at me and asked me what the point in him paying 3k to the consultant was. Well if he hadn’t paid the 3k he’d have still been waiting for the initial diagnostics, doesn’t mean he’ll get operated on earlier. I’m not going to lie, I have no issue cancelling the private patients and I’m happy to do it for other members of staff. They are consistently entitled and rude and think they can buy their way to the top of the list. Well they can’t.

Going private does not shorten the waiting list for others. It merely takes away that consultant / surgeon etc from his / her NHS caseload 'days' creating a two tier society of those that can afford healthcare and those who can't. Go private by all means, but don't think you are doing it for the greater good.

@SinkGirl

You’re not necessarily paying to be bumped up the list. You may very well be paying to use a private slot in an NHS hospital. She’s paying £2k which is the cost of the surgery/renting the space.

The consultants who do part private and part nhs will do that anyway irrespective of who chose to use them .

So I agree if you go private your slot in nhs will be free for someone else.

We paid for a private consultation for our grandson and then they did refer him back to nhs for treatment.