To ask everyone in the UK to watch this NI documentary

[NornIronKid]

You will (hopefully) be aware of the Ballymurphy Massacre, that has been in the news this week, when innocent civilians were killed by British soldiers in 1971. It has taken 50 years for the victims' names to be cleared of any wrongdoing.

There has been a lot of posts on here mentioning NI over the past years due to Brexit, and it has become clear that many people in GB are not aware of the history. This documentary is from 3 years ago and now showing again on Ch4 - it is a long, difficult but important watch

www.channel4.com/programmes/massacre-at-ballymurphy

I just watched the documentary there. Did it come out at the inquest that the "gun battle" that the British army imagined up was actually 2 different groups of British soldiers shooting at one another for days on end? This seemed to be the case from the evidence the families gathered.

It's so farcical it would almost be funny only for 11 people died because of their actions.

Whatever nationality those killed considered themselves to be, they were British citizens by birth and also entitled to Irish citizenship (or Irish citizens by birth depending on when they were born. They might not have wanted to be claimed by Britain but they were and they were killed by British soldiers.

For context this graph shows number of people killed and by which group.

The British Army should be held to a higher standard than terrorist groups, and where civilian deaths occur there does need to be investigations, but let’s not kid ourselves that the civil unrest that the Army were trying to contain was anything less than brutal, bloody and relentless.

Just to add that those numbers aren’t meant to show that just because the numbers of people killed by the army are small then they should be ignored, it is to show the sheer scale of the violence.

The British Army should be held to a higher standard than terrorist groups, and where civilian deaths occur there does need to be investigations

Yes.
Have you compared the Widgery report on the atrocity that was Bloody Sunday with the Saville report decades later?

Shocking attitudes here . I watched this documentary when it was on but thanks for posting it as I was trying to explain what happened to my teenage daughter . Such a shameful waste of lives . These people were murdered by the British Army and the killers should face trial. I dont care if they are 70 or whatever . It was state killing . Can't believe folk are coming out with the "but the IRA .." This is our army murdering innocent civillians . Disgusting . And there are more deaths from the British Army that have went unpunished . I'm Glaswegian of Irish descent and remember thinking during The Troubles ,that just a sea separated me from the people being oppressed and murdered.

The IRA are terrorists. The British Army we are told, is better than that.
Are you really going to use whataboutary to justify this?

These replied pretty much explain the attitude of the British in Ireland (and most other places) and why there have been "troubles" all these years.

Mabelpines- that graph is heartbreaking. All those civilians killed and for what?
Also makes a mockery of it all when you realise the IRA killed more of their own than the loyalists and army put together.

I think what grates with people from countries that have suffered at the hands of the British army is the belief in the UK that British soldiers are all heroes and they've never done any wrong to anyone. There's almost zero acknowledgement that a fair proportion of British soldiers were, in these countries, psychopathic thugs.

The hero worship of the military in UK society has reached near American proportions. You even see it on shows like Britain's Got Talent, if a guy is wearing an army uniform, if he so much as takes a shit on the stage Ant & Dec would give him a golden buzzer into the final. Ridiculous!

Thanks for starting this thread OP. I had no idea the victims were not IRA. I grew up and went to school in London during the 1970s when the IRA were bombing us. My mum worked in the city at the same time. I just remember this overriding feeling of fear. Every time there was a bomb and Mum was late home, I was scared I’d never see her again.

I think what grates people when republicans complain about the army is the complete lack of acknowledgment that the IRA did truly horrific things and had they not been waging a campaign of terror the army wouldn’t have been in NI.
Yes- I know the didn’t arrive specifically because of IRA activity- but IRA activity was definitely a driver in them being in the north for 30 years.
Should say that Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday were horrific and should never have happened- but having Michelle and Mary Lou speak up about it with no sense of irony sticks in the throat.

@TrishM80 well said. And don't get me started on the poppy extremism, especially when it leads to people like James McLean and his family getting death threats because he won't wear one. He won't wear one because he comes from Derry where his neighbours were murdered by British forces. Why on earth would he wear a poppy?

I think what grates people when republicans complain about the army is the complete lack of acknowledgment that the IRA did truly horrific things and had they not been waging a campaign of terror the army wouldn’t have been in NI.

The army were sent in because of the violence between the IRA & loyalist groups & the fact the police couldn't cope. You do know that the IRA were not the only group involved?

Not all Irish people are terrorists, believe it or not, most people in NI or Ireland are just normal non-terroríst people trying to be happy.

The British Army were trigger happy, were shooting without caring to assess whether these people were a threat or simply just happened to be in the wrong place.

Then, rather than admit that something went very wrong and making sure that it never happened again, they made out that these people were terrorists and were a threat. This has since been proven incorrect.

It's a massive injustice and someone needs to take responsibility for it.

Thanks for posting OP.
My heart sinks reading some of the comments here.
It was well known among ordinary decent people that the 10 people murdered were innocent and not connected with the IRA. The cover up by the British Army started almost immediately and caused untold damage that effectively legitimised other atrocities in the eyes of others who saw no hope or solution.
As far the whole well the army wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for the IRA, perhaps not but imagine living in NI in the 1960s, 1970s. Not being able to get a job because of your religion. A house, a future? This was the state people lived under. This is why it isn't possible to just move on or let it go. The British Government knowingly oppressed citizens living in its own kingdom. There needs to be in-depth acknowledgment of this and of the consequences.
There needs to be exposure and demonstrated learning that the British Government gets it enough to make sure it keeps NI on the path to peace - we've seen just recently how narrow and unstable that path is. The Irish Govt and EU have a role here too given Brexit.
I'd love to move on. Heck I haven't lived there for nearly 20 years now but my family all still do. We aren't festering in bitterness though. It's uneducated and insulting to assume that. We are however determined, as a majority of ordinary decent people, to call out the wrongs and to support families like those from Ballymurphy in getting the justice they deserve.

It's so farcical it would almost be funny only for 11 people died because of their actions.

Not 11 people. 1Para went on to commit the Bloody Sunday massacre 5 months after none of them were held account for Ballymurphy. So that's another 14 innocent, unarmed civilians murdered by this battalion.

Both these atrocities were definitive moments in the early troubles leading to a massive escalation of the situation. Not dealing with the perpetrators of the Ballymurphy massacre at the time, led to more, prolonged, intense violence that lasted decades.

1Para damaged the whole UK. We all paid, they didn't. Their crimes were covered up by the government and some were rewarded handsomely for their "service".

Well said @DioneTheDiabolist

Growing up in a Protestant background in NI, any talk of British army atrocities like this would be waved away with 'they were IRA anyway' when I heard all of the names being read out on the news followed by - innocent, my blood ran cold.

The gaslighting that goes on in Northern Ireland runs so deep, it could never be understood by residents of other UK nations. Really scary things happened here during the troubles (and still do) The police, the army, and the terrorist organisations all positioned themselves as people who would protect us from the other. But they were the ones hurting us, and they all had agents and informers in other organisations too.

It still goes on. Protestants are being told we must protest about the protocol, this is terrible being separated from the rest of the UK. But the people going out to protest don't all realise that what it's really all about is that the loyalist organisations cant get their illegal shipments from the UK due to the sea border checks. Drugs, weapons. The republicans groups can because they are coming up through the south. The ordinary person on the street hears politicians saying this protocol is a threat to the Union and they think well I like the Union, I'm British and I want to stay British, I work for the NHS and I don't want to lose that, I'm glad this politician is sticking up for me. I'm going to vote for them at the next election. But they aren't. The politicians are often involved in the gangs too. They see a picture of a DUP member standing beside a UVF member, or a Sinn Feinn politician standing beside someone involved in the IRA. And they think well it's ok...someone has to protect us. The terrorists say they protect us. They have signs and graffiti up saying they won't tolerate drugs or crime in this area. Someone gets kneecapped, well they were a drug dealer so they had to be stopped. Someone has to do something. But the terrorist groups are the ones importing and dealing the drugs. They won't tolerate other drug dealers. Most people don't have the depth of knowledge of terrorist organisations to realise they are being gaslighted - why would they?

@MissMarks

I think what grates people when republicans complain about the army is the complete lack of acknowledgment that the IRA did truly horrific things and had they not been waging a campaign of terror the army wouldn’t have been in NI. Yes- I know the didn’t arrive specifically because of IRA activity- but IRA activity was definitely a driver in them being in the north for 30 years. Should say that Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday were horrific and should never have happened- but having Michelle and Mary Lou speak up about it with no sense of irony sticks in the throat.

If you're going down that road though you have to go back to the start really - would the IRA as we knew it in the 60s and 70s have existed without the presence of the Black and Tans in Ireland in the 1920s - I doubt it.

@@MissMarks The massacres in Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday were definitely a driver in the rise of power of the IRA in the early days of the Troubles.

No one has denied atrocities committed by the IRA. This is a thread about the Ballymurphy Massacre, not the IRA. Neither the victims nor the perpetrators of the Ballymurphy Massacre were members of the IRA.

@Luckystar1

Oh my gosh. I am actually shocked and appalled by some of the answers so far. How awfully sad that the lives of innocent people are reduced to arguments in ‘whataboutery’.

In addition to @sashh’s excellent point, it is also worth noting that the reason we are hearing now more of the atrocities committed by some members of the British army, is that they are only just coming to light after years and years of campaigning and evidence gathering by the families of these poor people.

‘Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it’.

Thank you for verbalising what I wanted to say. Remember too the media embargo. The silence about the history of the "troubles" was also deafening. Right up until the beginning of the good Friday agreement. It was ok for British soldiers to murder, and in fact the RUC. Yes there were other atrocities on every side. Many executions on every side. Some people were interned and tortured some went before judges with no jury and banged up for life with signed statements of guilt that had been battered within an inch of their lives, out of them. The British army? Well they got medals. Do keep up.

Some of these responses are sickening.

Historically, the British, and a few other European nations of course, have been some of the most violent and oppressive in the history of the world. Sadly this long and brutal side of Britain’s history is basically wiped out of the school curriculum. When it happens elsewhere we call it brainwashing.

Completely agree.

I can't really speak for the English (and Welsh?) system because we have a completely different curriculum in Scotland but it always occurred to me that History, as a subject in high school, is much more about the skills of how to study it (the credibility, biases, accuracy, etc, of the sources) than what we actually want children and young adults to know.

I could tell you a lot about the wars for independence (but only the Scottish ones!), 1830s - 1930s (clearances, mining, population growth - again, only the Scottish ones) and world war 2.

Absolutely nothing about Ireland, England, Wales, America. The plantations, the wars for independence, the troubles, the persecutions. And that's before you get into all the other shady shit the empire did in the opposite direction.

I had to learn about the troubles myself. I had to google Jim Crow. Slavery? Apartheid? Not a clue.

Most of the stuff you learn comes from the media which we can all agree is biased in one direction. If you watch the BBC you'll likely know every single one of Henry the 8ths wives, be an expert in the wars of the roses, and could write a book on Victorian England.

We're a very ignorant... 'group of nations'. And it's absolutely cringe, to me, that we're incapable of seeing ourselves the way the rest of the world might be inclined to. And judging from the first few responses on this thread - some are actually gleefully incapable of it. Ignorant and happy about it.

I'm not sure you can completely "get it" until you go on holiday, and someone asks if you're English or British, and you say "na, I'm Scottish" (assuming it's the same for anyone who identifies as Irish). You'd never see the way the other person reacts, because you'd answer "yes" and the person would no doubt still be polite and respectful. But the atmosphere shifts and it's pretty obvious.

It's a shame, I guess.

Posters who would rather NI people "move on"

This is such a common attitude, people always wanting - demanding - other people to move on. Other people need to shut up about it.

"WHY is EVERYONE SO DIVIDED??" Ireland, or maybe it's Northern Ireland, (most people don't even know) but they need to shut the fuck up and realise we are stronger together. Any talk of anything in any way related to the troubles is just feeding the divide. And Scotland, they should shut the fuck up too and realise we're better together. Any talk of independence will (according to MN) "rip their family apart". Everyone always agrees we need to stick together and shut up about it... but only until England decides England wants to leave the EU. Then we can talk about "national" identity. Then division is... okay I guess. Then borders are a good thing.
And they scratch their heads and wonder why a significant amount people feel the divide is only growing...

You're out because you lost the argument.

I wasn't aware this thread was meant to have winners and losers. Remember the Women's Coalition? I liked Monica McWilliams. She always seemed so calm when other people were frothing. She researches domestic violence now according to wikipedia.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=wpfqKwA1lYA
Peter Robinson in this video

I'm not sure you can completely "get it" until you go on holiday, and someone asks if you're English or British, and you say "na, I'm Scottish" (assuming it's the same for anyone who identifies as Irish).

You need to add "or Welsh". We always get forgotten about...