Why is MN so horrible to SAHMs?

[Sweak]

I'm sure this will go down like a lead balloon, but it's been bothering me.

Every post I see written by a sahm, no matter what her issue is, has at least 5 posters telling her she must get a job Or implying she's lazy and even worse 'contributes nothing.'

Lots of posts under the guise of telling women they need to protect themselves financially are criticising this choice (not always but many). I would never dream of criticising a mother for working so why is it acceptable to criticise those who decide to stay at home to be with their children? (I claim zero benefits fyi in case that's a suggestion). I accept that a very very long period out of work will leave you vulnerable if you split due pension, but 5 years or so? The pre school years...I don't think so. Obviously being a sahp is only going to work if you have a decent partner who shares income.

And finally so many posters implying that by being a sahm you are making it basically impossible to be employable ever again unless you run the PTA!

Full disclosure...I'm a sahm, and have been for four years, but I've decided to return to work. I've secured a job for sept (teacher), and got the second job I had an interview for so the suggestion sahm are making themselves unemployable for having a few years out doesn't ring true! However due to MN my confidence about getting a job was so low.

Can't we just support each others choices in life even if they differ to our own?

[quote Sweak]@Templetreebreeze it wasn't clear to me you weren't generalising about all sahms[/quote]
I think that along with the no judgemental comments it might be wise to read what others write fully without jumping to conclusions that others are being nasty.
It was very clear that I was talking about a certain type of man .
I even mentioned that its not just SAHM who suffer these lazy misogynistic types but WOHM as well.
They do view women as domestic appliances there to serve their needs only.
Shit partners and shit dads.

“But I'm talking about these situations where people have a philosophy which states that one person is the breadwinner and the other is the carer.

To want that you'd likely either have to have a very conservative worldview or have some deep-seated belief that children should only be with a parent as carer. Or be very ambitious and see a partner as a way to relieve you of any of the responsibilities that hold back other ambitious people. Or a combination of the above.”

I don’t really know what to say to this. The concept of a child having a parent as a primary carer is hardly a shocker, is it?

There is no right and wrong way to do these things. In any family with kids, you need money and you need childcare. If you want to both work and split the caring of your child between you - the MN “50/50” model that is held up as the holy grail - then by all means do that. Each to their own, basically. Who cares?

But, guess what, all couples are different. Imagine that! My DH is probably everything you would despise thepeople versuswork. He would be if the view that, where possible, he would prefer his children to be with their mother, yes. As a husband and father, it is his role to facilitate that and, to be honest, if he couldn’t have facilitated that, he wouldn’t have had four children. This is the way he is and how he was brought up - that as a husband and father you provide for your family and this is your primary role. Now you might not like that and you don’t have to. But he’s as entitled to his view and to bring up his children in the way he sees fit, just as you are. There is no “one size fits all” for families and no magic blueprint. If we were one if the “50/50” families you would advocate for, It would be different, sure, but not necessarily better. I have my role in the family and my husband has his because that’s the way we are. You can be equal, but different. We take care of each other in different ways and we do what we think is best for our kids, within our given capabilities and circumstances. I would never tell anyone how they should organise their lives.

My dh has always liked me being at home for the sex, likewise I like being at home for the sex and companionship.
We like to spend a lot of time together it's why we got married.
I don't care what others do, we just chose the route that gave us what we wanted out of life.
I like a slow pace of life, and have never really fancied being a circus act having to juggle life, that's no fun.

@Devlesko

My dh has always liked me being at home for the sex, likewise I like being at home for the sex and companionship. We like to spend a lot of time together it's why we got married. I don't care what others do, we just chose the route that gave us what we wanted out of life. I like a slow pace of life, and have never really fancied being a circus act having to juggle life, that's no fun.

What on earth?

“My dh has always liked me being at home for the sex, “ Say it like it is Develsko, don’t hold back.

It isnt

@paloma10

“My dh has always liked me being at home for the sex, “ Say it like it is Develsko, don’t hold back.

I know, life's too short. It's for living, not frantically trying to fit everything in all the time. Once in a while yes, things happen and you need to catch up, but living life constantly flapping around like a headless chicken or a hamster on a wheel, might be considered a life to some people.

He would be if the view that, where possible, he would prefer his children to be with their mother, yes. As a husband and father, it is his role to facilitate that and, to be honest, if he couldn’t have facilitated that, he wouldn’t have had four children. This is the way he is and how he was brought up - that as a husband and father you provide for your family and this is your primary role.

@paloma10 your husband sounds like a principled and decent man and a good father. But you have to recognise that that approach has a knock-on effect on you and on other women. It essentially restricts you from financial agency in your own life and family. It sounds as if you see this as a workable compromise and are happy with it and fair enough. But it is a significant restriction on your life. It means your financial security is basically on his terms and contingent on his approval.

As long as the marriage is a good one this may be a compromise you are more than happy to make. But what would happen if he cheated? How would you have felt if when you were younger you had had a very successful career path? This way of structuring your family would have been a significant limitation on this. If you have female children, how would he feel if one of them wanted to be an MP or a politician or a leading scientist or a pop star?

Of course someone will pipe up and say its all about choice and of course that's true. It is your choice and your husband's choice. But while that remains the "template" for the optimal marriage its always going to be problematic for those of us who don't want to live like this. It makes it much harder for those of us who really value our own financial autonomy to argue the case that men should support our financial autonomy in a range of ways. Such as supporting our right to work full time and supporting on the domestic front.

It is of course your choice and your husband's choice. But its not a choice made in a social vacuum.

thepeopleversuswork - sure, but we are all free to choose a partner who complements us in whatever way that may be. Or not choose a partner, as the case may be! We do have two girls and what they do is up to them. If they want to SAH, I’d say fine, but definitely take the necessary precautions to protect yourself. Your husband should expect nothing less. It really depends in the circumstances. If they want to be an MP or pop star, they can do this too.

@lovepickledlimes no me stopping work didn't mean I did the chores to free up family leisure time. I still had a cleaner and expect the kids to help with the washing, dishwasher etc so wasn't doing that when they were at school. Likewise I don't plan wholesome activities, if we fancy craft/baking etc we just get the stuff out the cupboards there and then, there's no craft prep first from me.

Honestly I spent my days swimming, coffee or lunch with friends, reading, doing some of my art. It was the life of Reilly and I'm looking forward to retirement in 30years 😂 Sometimes I'd phone to book the car in the garage etc but I did that at lunchtime anyway when I worked. They might have noticed less batch cooking staples for dinner but that's the only difference to their lives?

But I very much believe in a 1970s childhood where kids need freedom, plenty of outside time need to get bored and amuse themselves, rather than I'm preparing craft activities, keeping them occupied all the time etc? And they need to help with the chores - even as toddlers they'd help pair socks etc. I do expect everyone in the house to pull their weight. I am not a house elf there to serve everyone else!

@thepeopleversuswork

He would be if the view that, where possible, he would prefer his children to be with their mother, yes. As a husband and father, it is his role to facilitate that and, to be honest, if he couldn’t have facilitated that, he wouldn’t have had four children. This is the way he is and how he was brought up - that as a husband and father you provide for your family and this is your primary role.

@paloma10 your husband sounds like a principled and decent man and a good father. But you have to recognise that that approach has a knock-on effect on you and on other women. It essentially restricts you from financial agency in your own life and family. It sounds as if you see this as a workable compromise and are happy with it and fair enough. But it is a significant restriction on your life. It means your financial security is basically on his terms and contingent on his approval.

As long as the marriage is a good one this may be a compromise you are more than happy to make. But what would happen if he cheated? How would you have felt if when you were younger you had had a very successful career path? This way of structuring your family would have been a significant limitation on this. If you have female children, how would he feel if one of them wanted to be an MP or a politician or a leading scientist or a pop star?

Of course someone will pipe up and say its all about choice and of course that's true. It is your choice and your husband's choice. But while that remains the "template" for the optimal marriage its always going to be problematic for those of us who don't want to live like this. It makes it much harder for those of us who really value our own financial autonomy to argue the case that men should support our financial autonomy in a range of ways. Such as supporting our right to work full time and supporting on the domestic front.

It is of course your choice and your husband's choice. But its not a choice made in a social vacuum.

Bollocks. Women who have a sahp do no worse than men who have a sahp. If women have kids and have time off they will earn more than men who don't. Blaming sahm for wohm not doing well is passing the buck. Find a sahp if you want to progress, learn from the men, don't blame others for your choices.

should read less than men who don't take time out.

@thepeopleversuswork

But while that remains the "template" for the optimal marriage its always going to be problematic for those of us who don't want to live like this. It makes it much harder for those of us who really value our own financial autonomy to argue the case that men should support our financial autonomy in a range of ways. Such as supporting our right to work full time and supporting on the domestic front.

Who is viewing this as the "template for the optimal marriage"? I'm confused by this, can you clarify your comments?

you have female children, how would he feel if one of them wanted to be an MP or a politician or a leading scientist or a pop star?

I feel like this comment assumes @paloma10 has a husband with really narrow views on women. Paloma stated earlier that her husband prefers her at home to be the primary caregiver...but that doesn't mean she's forced by him to take that position. She wants that position too. I could be wrong but I get the impression that Paloma can do what she likes..hence the MA and plans for the future. Preferring something isn't the same as imposing something. Do correct me if I'm wrong Paloma

@thepeopleversuswork I do think I have to agree with @Devlesko response to this statement

is of course your choice and your husband's choice. But its not a choice made in a social vacuum.

It can't be a sahm fault for the situation of wohms. And I don't think that argument stacks up anyway as it's more unusual to Sah than Woh now. That is not to say there aren't significant issues facing working mothers (or indeed just women generally). But I agree your comment 'passes the buck' onto sahm for these issues and unfairly so

This "template" doesn't exist though. More women work now, than ever.
I'd say it was more the norm than sahm, so maybe that's the template.

I'm not sure where this impression comes from that a man is somewhat primitive if he's married to a sahm.
I know that some women would prefer to work but can't due to several reasons, but surely the majority of sahm want to be.

living life constantly flapping around like a headless chicken or a hamster on a wheel, might be considered a life to some people.

But who’s doing this? I work full-time (as does DH) and don’t live my life like this. I think if you struggle with organisation then maybe it could veer in this direction sometimes, I guess.

But I’m certainly not flapping around like a headless chicken and I’m an expat with no family to help and my kids are under 5. I feel I have a full and diverse life (a bit restricted due to CV-19 but who isn’t).

@Devlesko flapping around like a headless chicken? Trying to do everything at once? That’s only if you believe all these smug people who think children need attention from their parents every single second of the day and guilt WOHP.
My parents spent evenings and weekends with me and felt zero guilt. The confident , independent woman I am today is because I spent all of that time doing stuff on my own or with friends. And am closer to parents than most friends with SAHM :)
But then again my mother had an important intellectually challenging career and so do I. Guess you wouldn’t miss work if you weren’t doing anything much anyway

Oh god, I would never for one second suggest my relationship is a template for anyone or anything. I was just responding to peopleversuswork comments and trying to explain a different perspective.

No my husband would just hope my girls end up happy. He’s always joked with one that she’s going to be the first woman on Mars, but if she wanted to SAH he wouldn’t say she was a letdown either.

He did prefer me to be at home with the kids, particularly when they were younger and also this is when his work was more intense and he was travelling a lot more, but it was a mutual thing overall. I’m not a domestic appliance and it’s not about housework, but I admit I do generally do things like cook for him when he’s home and I take care of most stuff related to the kids and their schools, etc.

[quote TheLastLotus]@Devlesko flapping around like a headless chicken? Trying to do everything at once? That’s only if you believe all these smug people who think children need attention from their parents every single second of the day and guilt WOHP.
My parents spent evenings and weekends with me and felt zero guilt. The confident , independent woman I am today is because I spent all of that time doing stuff on my own or with friends. And am closer to parents than most friends with SAHM :)
But then again my mother had an important intellectually challenging career and so do I. Guess you wouldn’t miss work if you weren’t doing anything much anyway[/quote]
Sahm are a diverse group, like any group in society is. Yes, some may have had what we might term jobs rather than careers, just the same as wohm. But plenty of sahm pause their careers. I myself had an intellectually challenging career. I didn't miss it until last year, so I would say the first 3 years I didn't miss it.

I had a career I loved, but it paled into insignificance when the kids came along.
I was the higher earner, huge business profits. My dh earned much less, but we chose the lower wage as not that into money, and comercialism .
I didn't miss it though as was still pretty much involved, as were the kids.
As for the headless chickens, I think some of you ned to read the threads about the woman doing everything even though they work.

@Devlesko

My dh has always liked me being at home for the sex, likewise I like being at home for the sex and companionship. We like to spend a lot of time together it's why we got married. I don't care what others do, we just chose the route that gave us what we wanted out of life. I like a slow pace of life, and have never really fancied being a circus act having to juggle life, that's no fun.

I'm not sure you could fit anymore ridiculous, misguided assumptions in this post if you tried!

I had a career I loved, but it paled into insignificance when the kids came along.

Good for you, but we’re not all the same. I feel my career is more of a calling really, at least personally speaking. And someone’s got to make new medicines after all. The love I have for my work doesn’t diminish the love I have for my children. In fact, I feel immensely fortunate that I have both.

@FloconDeNeige

I had a career I loved, but it paled into insignificance when the kids came along.

Good for you, but we’re not all the same. I feel my career is more of a calling really, at least personally speaking. And someone’s got to make new medicines after all. The love I have for my work doesn’t diminish the love I have for my children. In fact, I feel immensely fortunate that I have both.

Same here. I’m a nurse and being a nurse is such a huge part of my identity that I didn’t feel like me even when in maternity leave. I was glad to get back to my patients. I can’t imagine doing anything other than nursing and haven’t since I was 4. I know some women feel the same about being a Mum and so want to do the SAHM thing. We’re all different.

Comparison really is the thief of joy.