To think we won't see a Labour Government again for many years?

[Rosehip10]

Even discounting the changes in the ex-industrial former "red-wall" seats, no Labour leader has ever become Prime Minister without winning at least half the seats in Scotland. Even if Scotland does not vote for independence in the next few years, Labour is never going to recover there. If independence comes then it is academic anyway.

Combine that with the changes in the former Labour seats in the north (which I think will only continue) then a Government cannot be formed of London MPs, a few larger cities and some seats in university towns/cities.

I don't think Starmer is the most charismatic leader but I think any ppolitican would struggle to solve this. Very hard to try and appeal to ex-industrial seats AND young, metropolitan, middle class voters in London etc.

One of the best comments I saw yesterday was Labour trying to make traction of the conservatives being corrupt and stuffing money into places that voted for them, was people thinking "well all politicians are corrupt anyway, so we may as well vote for Boris to get some of that too!"

@randomlyLostInWales I think additionally to what you mention, the Tories do not come across very strongly in Wales, and however much Plaid would wish, the independence question is not as strong in Wales as in Scotland.

With the pandemic there is also much more media exposure for both first ministers and for the Prime Minister (and male cabinet ministers), which may also have contributed to Welsh Labour, SNP, and English Tory successes.

I'm a swing voter, but I think the Blair/Brown governments did a huge amount of good. It has therefore been intensely frustrating to see Labour rubbishing their legacy. The most successful Labour governments ever, and you never hear a good word about them from their own party. And, yes, I know - Iraq. But, as wrong as the invasion was, the majority of the public supported it at the time, even if many them have conveniently forgotten that.

The Tories get huge amounts wrong (including supporting the invasion of Iraq) and fight like rats in a sack behind the scenes, but you don't see them publicly rubbishing their own legacy.

If Labour are constantly telling us how shit their last Government was, how on Earth can they expect any of us to vote for them?

Farage must be mighty p*ssed off then. He's got his Brexit, but he doesn't seem to be getting any reward for it. I am not sure that the name Farage and the word Principle go together in the same sentence.

What exactly would have been wrong with another Referendum? If people had still voted to Leave that would have been good confirmation. Although it would have been hoped that the details of what exactly would be involved would have been spelled out.

Farage must be mighty pssed off then. He's got his Brexit, but he doesn't seem to be getting any reward for it*

Every cloud...

Blair /brown did so much damage I can't begin to say how angry I am with them.

[quote newnortherner111]@randomlyLostInWales I think additionally to what you mention, the Tories do not come across very strongly in Wales, and however much Plaid would wish, the independence question is not as strong in Wales as in Scotland.

With the pandemic there is also much more media exposure for both first ministers and for the Prime Minister (and male cabinet ministers), which may also have contributed to Welsh Labour, SNP, and English Tory successes.[/quote]
Yes - I agree with all this as well.

I'm sure as brexit was his focus he's extremely happy?
That's all he ever wanted?

Principles!

Corybn has principles!
The problem is he pushed or the left wing media pushed his principles so much that it came tumbling down like ton of bricks.
They riase expectations so high and yet they can't manage expectations.

It probably was out of principle because he had no ambitions to be a political party leader or government minister

You could be right, Kazzy - and as Iamnotthe1 just said, he did get Brexit - but I confess I'm struggling with the concept of "principles" and "politician" in the same sentence

But then I've known far too many, and while some undoubtably started with principles, these and their integrity were all discarded in favour of the party line and the climb up the greasy pole

IME the mistakes of the likes of Thornberry weren't in what they thought as they'd have thought it anyway ... the mistake was making it public

If Labour are constantly telling us how shit their last Government was, how on Earth can they expect any of us to vote for them?

Yes this. Its incomprehensible. Its their only success in the living memory of nearly all of the population, yet they tell us it was a failure and expect people to vote them in again.

@Puttingouthefirewithgasoline

User my point was that public schools probably set more store by such things but dc in an average school probably don't have the access or support to do it.

Those that want to can seek it out, sure but doesn't that undermine those that could but don't have the backing to?

It's perhaps a small reason why it's the public schools and grammar alumni who continue to dominate politics?

Maybe its the negative attitudes of people like you?

Stop telling people what they can't do.

I was a bit taken aback by your comment too, as public speaking is a standard element of most university courses and many jobs now. You can google how to improve your skills on the internet, or you might be sent on a course with your work. Its hardly something thats reserved for Conservative politicians and public school alumni.

Obviously, politicians from all parties will be better at it than the average person. You wouldn't succeed in politics if you didn't have some talent for public speaking.

We don't see this type of domination you speak of in other European countries. There is something about British politics that deters many working people from entering it. Only the thickest skinned, the most ambitious and the most career type politicians get involved in this country. In Scotland, many career politicians are not privately educated, eg Gordon Brown and Nicola Sturgeon. But we still see the same basic types.

But if you had a good career as a doctor or ran a successful business, would you really want to put all of that at risk to be a politician?

@Puttingouthefirewithgasoline

Blair /brown did so much damage I can't begin to say how angry I am with them.

Yes, how much better to have an ideologically pure party that never gets elected, so we have the Tories forever

Emily thornberrys white van man comment ad the flag /whilst purporting to be a caring Labour supporter, people do not forget these things

But people are quite happy to forget the £100bn plus handed over by the tories to their mates last year, for things that didn’t function

This is what I don’t understand - people seem to have a very long memory when it comes to bad behaviour of Labour MPs, yet forgive BJ basically anything. It makes no sense to me

Throwing cash around in the hope it might be the thing that saves people’s lives and like the wallpaper very few people give a flying f**k about it

The other was a deeply personal insult directed at the people who Labour were suppose to represent.

There is something about British politics that deters many working people from entering it. Only the thickest skinned, the most ambitious and the most career type politicians get involved in this country.

I don't think that was necessarily always the case, but one way in for many would have been via Trade Union activities.

@Peregrina no way once is enough
barely got it done with 1 after 5 years and 4 pro Brexit votes(if u ask me)

I don't think Nigel Farage is that unhappy really.
I bet he still meets up with other like minded tories now and again to chew the fat.
He has money and will go up the pub when they open up again.
I think he said ' job done ' and moved on with his life leaving everyone else to clear up the mess! The conservatives have the Kippers votes now too. It's all been very slick.
As for a Emily Thornberry , bad comments yes, but I can think of worse that Boris Johnson has said and written about a lot of people too.
Why is that ok ?

• interesting how my public speaking comment has been seized upon.

It was in response to someone earlier claiming that boris is a good public speaker, inspite the bluster.

I commented that perhaps, from school days, cutting his teeth in debating clubs and then at uni, he is now well accomplished in it.

My comments are wider musings on the general access of people from bog standard schools who maybe brilliant politicians but can't do public speaking and therefore wouldn't get far.

Ie Boris I'm sure has had far more support to enter debating teams and hone his skills than an equally bright person at a bog standard school where they may not get the same attention as someone in a public school!

I've always thought our lack of decent politicians was noted and that we are public and grammar school heavy?

Surely we want a broader range of people from different backgrounds representing us in hoc?
In that case, why are they not filtering through, not all of them will make it to red brick uni on the right course to be encouraged to start debating and public speaking?

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Farage must be mighty pssed off then. He's got his Brexit, but he doesn't seem to be getting any reward for it*

Every cloud...

Yep 😀

and like the wallpaper very few people give a flying f**k about it

But I am 100% sure that if it had been a Labour incumbent of Downing Street who had done that, we would not have heard the last of it.

I also think we would have heard an awful lot more cricitism of any Labour leader who had been divorced twice and was now living with someone he wasn't married to, and had at least six children by three different women.

@PriestessofPing

A Labour Government has just been re-elected in Wales but you’d probably not know that from many media outlets or from Labour in England. Actually made gains too. It’s not just about England and Scotland. Why has Wales stayed Labour? That would be something for Keir Starmer etc to think about perhaps.

Possibly because they are the incumbents at a time in which we are all feeling optimistic. Same could be said for the SNP in Scotland. It also helps of course that the Welsh Conservatives had to change leader in rather a hurry recently.

The left has ALWAYS been excellent at navel gazing and having huge fights about semantics. They are rarely truly united. The one time I do remember a genuine coming together was when Derek Beackon was elected in 1993 as a British National Party councillor in Tower Hamlets. It caused a furore.

As much as it’s painful to admit that Scene form the Life of Brian where they are arguing about the People’s Front of Judea and the Judean Peoples Front is exactly spot on.

The other thing about the extreme left is the misogyny. They did used to at least attempt to hide it but they make no attempt now with their erosion of women’s rights.

ghostylovessheets I think a possible answer to the query you put upthread may be because Labour are seen to award benefits and the Conservatives to cut benefits. Ever met a I made it so why can’t they person? I have and social mobility was still very much a thing when I was young though those chances have diminished now.

What exactly would have been wrong with another Referendum? If people had still voted to Leave that would have been good confirmation. Although it would have been hoped that the details of what exactly would be involved would have been spelled out.

Because people were told at the time it was a one-off vote and that the result would be accepted and acted upon whichever way it went. All sides agreed to abide by the result and to have held another referendum would be saying, we know we said we would implement the result whichever way it went but we didn't mean we would do so if it went the way we didn't want it to, so we'll just try again and see if you've come to your senses. That idea did not go down well with the voting public and never would.

As much as it’s painful to admit that Scene form the Life of Brian where they are arguing about the People’s Front of Judea and the Judean Peoples Front is exactly spot on.

This was very much how the extreme left were when I was at university in the 70s - the International Marxist Group and the forerunner of the Socialist Worker's Party were at each other's throats all the time. In membership they totalled about 6 people. The then Liberal group had 30 paid up members and could regularly pack out a lecture hall with good speakers.

Why did they make her leader back then? Just to buy some more time because they didn't really want to leave ?

Because there were two of them left in the race and Anthea Leadsom made some tone deaf comment about being the best bet because she was a mother and had a stake in the country’s future. Following total uproar she stood down, leaving May to be crowned.

I agree and it pisses me off. Every election I’ve been allowed to vote in has not gone my way. I don’t want a Tory government and I didn’t want Brexit. It makes me feel like my vote is totally pointless, I feel powerless.

I just hope that Labour don't plunge into another bout of navel-gazing introspection and chew over their wrongs and how they have also been wronged for the next 6 months.

Labour clearly can win - Steve Rotheram and (dare I say) Labour in Wales have proved that. So perhaps lessons need to be learned from those quarters.

I'm somewhat amazed by how close the London Mayoral race seems to be! Considering that I don't think even the Tories thought it was worth campaigning for Shaun Bailey ...