To say that being a vegan is no better for the environment than being a meat eater?

[OnlyInYourDreams]

Unless you eat only home grown, locally sourced products?

Obviously some people are vegan because they don’t like the idea of using any kind of animal products. But all too often people say that they’re vegan because “it’s better for the environment when this is categorically not the case.

Lots of fruit/veg have to be imported which is actually worse for the environment because it involves pumping man-made substances into the environment.

Products like almond milk are terrible for the environment because e.g. it takes 1600l of water to produce 1l of almond milk. Coca-Cola is practically a green product in comparison…

If people want to be vegan, why not just say you want to be vegan. Coming up with reasons such as “it’s better for the environment” which are just rubbish and laughable is only going to increase the amount of people who don’t take vegans seriously.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

"or your long term health* If it was better for our long-term health, how come we have evolved eating meat for millennia?

There is evidence that a vegan diet isn't great for bone health.

Please feel free to share this evidence. Because The China Study very clearly indicates that a typical Western diet high in dairy products and animal protein correlates with a much higher occurrence of osteoporosis and bone fractures.

nutritionstudies.org/china-report-osteoporosis/

@OnlyInYourDreams

So vegans are in favour of species becoming extinct then?

Ducks/chickens/cows/sheep of varying breeds? Without eating them or using them for other bi-products there is literally no reason for them to exist.

Umm are you also ignorant of the fact that all of those species already exist in the wild?

Where do you think domesticated animals originated from?

@OnlyInYourDreams

Always ignored is the amount of carbon grass fields capture. It's estimated to be 1-2 tonnes per acre per year. An acre is not a large area. Meat is also more nutritious than plant matter and our bodies can better digest it. not to mention the fact that any diet which needs supplements is clearly not a healthy diet.

And nowhere did I say that an omnivorous diet is more environmentally friendly, just that veganism isn’t.

You'd still be wrong.

Veganism and vegetarianism have significantly less impact than omnivorous diets.

Here's a systematic review of the evidence

https://res.mdpi.com/dattachment/sustainability/sustainability-11-04110/articlee_deploy/sustainability-11-04110.pdf

I don't expect you'll read it... you don't seem keen on educating yourself

It's more to do with eating meat being bad for the environment, rather than being vegan being good. Rearing cows requires a huge amount of land (animals and crops for their feed), and produces a lot of methane which is an impact on global warming.

^So vegans are in favour of species becoming extinct then?

Ducks/chickens/cows/sheep of varying breeds? Without eating them or using them for other bi-products there is literally no reason for them to exist.^

🤣🤣🤣

I suppose that’s the reason you eat meat OP, so you can visit it before hand?

My local farm charges a fortune for a day ticket I’m sure it’d be worth there while to keep breeding the farm animals.

Except nowhere have I said “meat eaters are more environmentally sound than vegans.” I said that some vegans claim that they’re doing it for environmental reasons and the arguments don’t back that up.

And there are studies on both sides, so it’s possible to prove both points anyway.

And if you’re a vegan who wants fake meat products, why? You don’t want to eat meat, so don’t pretend that your veg is meat by calling it a steak or a vegan bacon sandwich or (as in a thread recently) vegan fish and chips. They aren’t. They’re vegetables and whatever other substance they put with them to give them the appearance of meat, that product which people apparently don’t want to eat.

People would spend far less time arguing with vegans if the vegans didn’t try to claim that you could have vegan meat, or a vegan butcher. Why not just say it’s a green grocer.

If it's all about emissions and vegans "care" so much why don't they just stop eating altogether? Everybody wins.

@OnlyInYourDreams

So vegans are in favour of species becoming extinct then?

Ducks/chickens/cows/sheep of varying breeds? Without eating them or using them for other bi-products there is literally no reason for them to exist.

We don't eat swans, elephants, dolphins, butterflies, rhinos, garden birds or other humans, should they not exist either?

With regard to animal 'emissions' couldn't the farmers connect all the cows bottoms, using plastic tubing (it lasts for years, you know) to a central point and the methane collected via underground pipes (clay) to a central power station and used to generate electricity for those new fangled electric cars we keep hearing about?
I'm not an engineer or a politician but it seem pretty obvious to me.

Is that bottle empty already? There's some more under the cot.

Anyway as I was saying... what was I saying?

Anybody?

We don't eat swans, elephants, dolphins, butterflies, rhinos, garden birds or other humans, should they not exist either? did I say that vegans agreed with the extinction of all animals? Nope didn’t think so.

I’ll tell you because actually leaving a pig to live it’s full 15yrs takes more land, food, water than raising it for two years and slaughtering it.

It’s not wrong, @PlanDeRaccordement , the very fact is animals are bred for food/slaughter they simply wouldn’t exist in these quantities in the wild and the ones that did exist would be subject to normal food chain procedures which would inevitably limit the numbers. So that logic fails.

I’m a meat eater.. but this doesn’t make sense

It’s complicated and if sustainability is your number one concern you need to weigh up every individual product you buy and eat, not follow any labelled diet be it vegetarian, vegan etc. In some cases organic, local meat will be a better option than certain vegan products. You have to make sustainability your lifestyle, not vegan Ian. Ultimately you’re likely to end up eating a largely vegan diet but not necessarily exclusively.

@OnlyInYourDreams what type of stupid statement is that. Please provide me any credible study that says eating meat is better for the environment than eating a vega diet. Just one. I am waiting.

Also we don’t eat foxes, urban pigeons, squirrels etc.. and they haven’t gone extinct yet. Do you know the concept of a ‘wild animal’ animals that exist not because of any human interaction?

@OnlyInYourDreams

So vegans are in favour of species becoming extinct then?

Ducks/chickens/cows/sheep of varying breeds? Without eating them or using them for other bi-products there is literally no reason for them to exist.

It’s exhausting to reply to people like you. It’s like you don’t even read what you write.

what type of stupid statement is that. Please provide me any credible study that says eating meat is better for the environment than eating a vega diet. Just one. I am waiting. please provide me with a copy of where I said that eating meat was better for the environment. Oh wait, you can’t.

'And if you’re a vegan who wants fake meat products, why? You don’t want to eat meat, so don’t pretend that your veg is meat by calling it a steak or a vegan bacon sandwich or (as in a thread recently) vegan fish and chips. They aren’t. They’re vegetables and whatever other substance they put with them to give them the appearance of meat, that product which people apparently don’t want to eat. '

Erm... because a lot of people like meat but don't want to eat the animals due to factory farming conditions or the environment, or health reasons.

I thought that was pretty easy to understand but clearly you are having issues grasping that simple concept

I'm not even vegan but these arguments are so stupid. Instead of making a stupid thread about it why not just take the time to educate yourself. It's not like all the vegans in the world have just never thought up these points is it?

The amount of people that think because they eat local milk/beef their food has no air miles is bloody ridiculous. I'm not a farmer but I know enough about farming to realise that 1kg of beef requires tens of times that in food being imported to feed the cow and the cow's waste being exported back out.

@OnlyInYourDreams

Except nowhere have I said “meat eaters are more environmentally sound than vegans.” I said that some vegans claim that they’re doing it for environmental reasons and the arguments don’t back that up.

And there are studies on both sides, so it’s possible to prove both points anyway.

And if you’re a vegan who wants fake meat products, why? You don’t want to eat meat, so don’t pretend that your veg is meat by calling it a steak or a vegan bacon sandwich or (as in a thread recently) vegan fish and chips. They aren’t. They’re vegetables and whatever other substance they put with them to give them the appearance of meat, that product which people apparently don’t want to eat.

People would spend far less time arguing with vegans if the vegans didn’t try to claim that you could have vegan meat, or a vegan butcher. Why not just say it’s a green grocer.

Again, right here.

And if you’re a vegan who wants fake meat products, why? You don’t want to eat meat, so don’t pretend that your veg is meat by calling it a steak or a vegan bacon sandwich or (as in a thread recently) vegan fish and chips. They aren’t. They’re vegetables and whatever other substance they put with them to give them the appearance of meat, that product which people apparently don’t want to eat.

Jesus fucking Christ.

What are you, the vegan police? Some people are vegan because they like the taste of meat but don’t want to kill an animal for their sustenance it’s not that fucking hard to understand.

There is a big difference between being vegan and being plant based. I’m largely plant based for my own health which involves eating mostly fruit and vegetables and no junk food.
I don’t really want to eat animals for a variety of reasons but I think vegans, plant based eaters, and yes, even carnivores can understand and agree the scientific data on how the meat industry is one, if not the largest contributor to carbon emissions and the destruction of the rainforests.

So yes, I choose to not eat meat to reduce my impact on the environment. Because science.

You said there were studies to support both sides so I am asking you to provide one study for your side. It’s really not hard.

It’s exhausting to reply to people like you. It’s like you don’t even read what you write. well, most of the vegans haven’t read anything I’ve written either it would seem, since most are assuming that I said that eating meat is better for the environment (I didn’t,) one has suggested that I thought all animals should be extinct (I never said that.) shall I go on?

@NCNCNCNCNCNCNCNCNC

I find the "if we didn't intensively farm X, they would go extinct" quite ridiculous. Even if it were true, which I don't believe it is, you're saying that an animal being separated from its parent at birth, raised in a cage and then killed is better than not existing at all? So you're doing them a favour? What utter bollocks. If you choose to eat meat that's absolutely your right but just own it! I drive a car even though I know I should cycle everywhere. I don't need to try and persuade you that somehow all the climate science is bollocks to justify my choices

Totally agree..such an utterly ridiculous argument.

Ah good. The 'veganism isn't better for the environment' argument is crumbling round your ears so we're onto Inexplicably Hostile Omni Arguments phase II - "But It's Not A Sausage!"

Why does it offend omnis so much to have plant based food referred to with "meat" names, and why does it bother you so much if we want to eat it? My staple retort is that it's like a dildo - looks similar, feels similar, fills a hole, nobody gets hurt. If yo want me to break that down, it's because most vegans grew up eating meat. I ate meat. Cooked properly and with the right seasonings it tasted nice. I still want to eat things that taste nice, I just can't bear the suffering behind a sandwich with real bacon any more. Facon tastes nice to me, it makes me happy, I'm glad it exists so people can have more choice.

Not all vegans eat meat replacements and those of us who do, don't eat as much of them as others seem to think. We certainly don't eat as much of them as omnis eat of meat and fish. I just don't understand why omnis get so hung up on them.

Nobody is making you eat facon or tofish if you don't want to. So why do you care so much?

I have quoted both your post where you asked if vegans wanted animals to go extinct - people kindly informed you that this wouldn’t happen as there is a thing called ‘wild animals’. The second post you said there are studies which say eating meat is more environmentally sound than being vegan. Again you have not provided any of these studies for people to verify.

@NCNCNCNCNCNCNCNCNC exactly I’m not an angel I know I eat too much imported food and probably use a lot of electricity but pretending that this eating meat isn’t bad for the environment is a kind of cognitive dissonance that even I can’t stomach.