to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

You cannot compare a creative enterprise, like composing muslc or writing songs to prostitution FGS, it's just proposterous.

There are levels of exploitation. It isn't a level playing field.

..your bad..?

"Models arent exploited (although admittedly there are some sinister sides to that business too), I dont think other actors are exploited either. Singers? Manual labourers?"

None of those people are used for their sexual organs. None of them are paid to ignore their disgust (imagine having to shag Ron Jeremy) in order to get paid.

There is no comparison.

"I always wanted the freedom to walk into WH Smiths at the station and not be confronted with row of women with their legs splayed apart and waiting for the male viewer. Freedom not to be reminded that my place in society was as a f*ck toy for men."

Personally I'm more offended by the rows and rows of fashion magazines telling me what I should look like, what clothes I should wear and what make up I should use to cover my face with. Personally from the porn I've seen, I've found it to show that people are turned on by all sorts of looks, fat, thin, tall, short, smooth, hairy.

I was wrong, obm
Bangbros is fairly vanilla.

"Freedom not to be reminded that my place in society was as a f*ck toy for men."

Why would you feel that your place in society was that in the first place?

I think it is perfectly fine to not like porn, to feel degraded by its association for whatever reason. Just because you feel that way, it doesnt mean it has to be uniformly felt by all women.

It doesnt mean that if women dont feel that way, they are exploited or downtrodden. In the same way that your not liking porn doesnt mean you are prudish or inhibited.

If a women feels happy with flashing her body and what she can do with it, then as long as she is consenting and it is legal then it really shouldnt make you feel like a fuck toy, or a lesser member of society.

oh, why thankyou OBM!

I'm offended by those too Norma. It's possible to be offended by both.

Sexism whatever form it takes is offensive, but leaving fashion magazines lying around an office won't get a company a sexual harassment suit on their hands whereas leaving porn lying around defintiely will. Similarly visiting porn sites at work will get most people the sack whereas logging on to vogue.com probably won't have the same effect.

Well, this is a horribly thorny issue isn't it.

OTOH, anyone with any sense and/or compassion OF COURSE thinks that the responsibility for rape and sexual violence lies with the perpetrator.

On the other hand... is it really beyond the pale to say that the pornification of everyday society and behaviour MUST provoke sexual responses in a lot of men, and that SOME of those men will be angry and violent enough to act on those responses in a non-consenting context?

I have long been ambivalent about lap-dancing for this reason. There is something very twisted, I think, in a woman writhing topless in a man's lap, while the man is told that if he touches the woman, he is a pervert and a criminal. To deliberately provoke a sexual resonse, and yet to stigmatise the man who acts on his response. This is deeply perverse behaviour, surely? This is not a mature, considerate approach to sexuality.

ELizabetth: when it comes to what magazines can be openly displayed in WHSmiths there are pretty strict regulations on cover imagery. No pubes or genitals, no nipples.
Just FYI.

Does WH SMith sell porn - or just erotica?

My reaserch is uncovering a lot of counter intuitive stuff about women in erotica. Not in porn though.

"Why would you feel that your place in society was that in the first place?"

I don't feel it's my place, but a lot of men see women in that light, pornhounds in particular, and they like reminding us of it.

And what exactly is the problem with using your vagina, if you so wish to? (as opposed to your vocal chords?)

As for tmmj getting jumped on - it was a crass thing to say - there is no getting around it. And I dont think anyone here has said that "rape porn" is okay.

Us "pro-porners" have consistently said we are okay with consenting, legal stuff. You are attempting to twist something to suit your point of view.

Station branches of WH Smiths sell porn mags monkeytrousers. There used to be a top shelf of them at Newcastle station where I commuted into which could be viewed from every part of the shop.

Policywonk: in a society where sex cannot be discussed and the idea of depicting it is illegal, is there really no sexual abuse? Or is it not more likely that predators use the prohibition in even discussing sex to frighten and coerce their victims into staying silent - how can you ask for help when you have been led to believe that what has been done to you is unspeakable, disgusting and yet your fault? ANd that you will be blamed for it if you say anything..

But you said it made you feel crap?

I'm not twisting anything VVV. I'm talking about what's in the market and what gets consumed. Not this fantasy consenting couples porn, but gonzo porn, rape porn, anal gang bang porn. That's what is driving the market and what is getting completely ignored here.

Come on madamez, I have a lot of respect for you and the way you argue your POV - please don't try to project that stuff onto me. So far as discussing sex goes, I am positively Dutch - my older son is, I bet, one of the few four-year-old boys in the country who knows the difference between 'vulva' and 'vagina'. I'm for full-on sex education, with pictures, at primary school level.

What I argued for here is the banning of depictions of violent sex featuring women.

Well you are. Because you are suggesting that pro-porners are "okay" with rape porn by means of silence (when in fact as far as I can tell, we have all said we are happy with consenting stuff that you are adamant doesnt exist - except it does), but that tmmj suggesting that men are weak enough and enabled to commit rape because of porn shouldnt be commented on. That is twisting things.

I'm with you on that one pw.

"That's what is driving the market"

Do you have a source for that information because most of the ponr I've seen is pretty normal stuff tbh?

Thought I'd check on this thread, blimey Elizabetth you have some staying power

ref the porn being consumed; are you not assuming that the average joe public is watching that type of porn, and not just "normal sex" type?

[ruty racks brain to think of the difference between vulva and vagina, gives up, goes to bed]

"Well you are. Because you are suggesting that pro-porners are "okay" with rape porn by means of silence (when in fact as far as I can tell, we have all said we are happy with consenting stuff that you are adamant doesnt exist - except it does), but that tmmj suggesting that men are weak enough and enabled to commit rape because of porn shouldnt be commented on. That is twisting things."

Actually it's the pro-porn side that's twisted it by insisting on focusing on these "special cases" (which I don't think are actually that special).

Although maybe we're almost in agreement, I'm against 100% of porn and if you object to rape porn, gonzo porn, everything pretty much but this couples porn where supposedly no-one is exploited (and the only stuff that looked like it might possibly match that fantasy was Tony Comstock's stuff) then you must be against about 95% of it.

Madamez and others are never going to support anything other than a pro porn stance, there is no nuance or grey area, as admitting that would be to admit some self doubt. That's a normal psychological response; still doesn't make you right though

Anyway, this is where I get off - all we can do is agree to disagree.

BTW, Elizabetth I live in Newcastle - have never noticed that inthe station. Will have a look next time i'm in there