to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

Thing is Daddyj, who decides if it is degrading???
If the woman is comfortable and happy to do it then is it still degrading?
What if it is a woman's fantasy to be controlled rather than the mans??
Also whilst you're here, I am fascinated by a mans view, so can I pick your brains as to what, if anything, you find degrading to a man about porn? I'm sure there must be something.

"cestlavie, she will continue to ignore them because she can't answer them."

I won't answer them because they were ridiculous and I've heard them a million times before. Did you miss the bit further up thread where I said I didn't regard this as a Q&A session for porn defenders to bark questions at me? Or did that pass you right by?

If you want to rephrase your questions as a statement of what you believe Sophable, I'll certainly address a post like that.

ShinyHappyPeople, true, but un fortunately many things can lead to break-ups of marriages and relationships.
IMO, If you are in a relationship, porn should be something you have discussed and somehow agreed on, DP and I do not use porn, if we were to, it would be together, that is our decision, I think that if you make a point of discussing it with your partner, and understand how each other feels wrt to it then hopefully it won't cause any issues.

LOL elizabetth, did you miss the bit when I explained why people asked you questions?? They are questioning your reasoning, and trying to discuss your point of view.

I did predict you would twist it into being about you, again, or refer to the Q&A retort.

porn that does "degrade" women would have to have heavier monitoring. Simply because what I consider degrading - Being pood on for instance. Is not degrading to everyone.

I agree with the book thing - No way could you put an age limit on it, but the sticker thing sounds good.

Moving the age limit for Porn up to 21 would work as long as we can make sure that its adhered to.

I'm interested - those who are against porn. Do you object to just those with the R18 or all 18 sex films? I personally prefer the normal 18 films because I don't "get off" so much on seeing the thing going in and out, just on the pleasure that seems to come from it, BUT I still enjoy a good R18 sometimes too.

agree with sophable. The degradation and humiliation of women in much porn is however a thorny issue. But so is the general perception of women in magazines like Loaded and the Sun, actually i am more worried about those as they are mainstream and every day.

I cannot agree with Elisabetth's views on porn in general;
even if we did ban it how would we effectively enforce that ban?
There are barely enough police resources to tackle online child abuse.

I do agree with E, though, when it comes to the direction
the porn industry has taken in recent years.
It has become more extreme and Bangbros is a fitting,
high-profile example.

So once more: what should be done about gonzo porn?

sigh.

I believe that just as in life, there is all sorts of pornography out there (i.e. depictions of explicit sexual acts) and just as you cannot make a judgement of sex per se, you cannot judge porn per se.

the only argument against all porn that I understand is that what is wrong with it is the economic transaction. I can understand and respect that argument as it is one that can be made cogently.

the others just make no sense as they only apply to some porn.

DaddyJ - Stay and discuss. Would like a male POV on the whole thing. What do you as a man feel is degrading to women? Also what is degrading to men?

Sophable & cestlavie - I wouldn't bother, there are plenty more people that will converse with you instead of just ignoring everything they don't "want" to answer.

Relationships are complicated though VS... people do things sometimes that they think is "harmless fun" just for a bit of escapism (because let's face it life is hard!) and because they think "what she doesn't know won't hurt her" and as everyone is forever saying on here, people should not "snoop" and "police" their partners activities. People should have Respect and Trust.

But once that's been breeched it's very very hard to get past. And porn (and it's related activies) can become a habit... and then an addiction. Even in the nicest, kindest most family-orientated men.

What's funny VS is that despite me saying I wasn't going to answer questions barked at me, Sophable went on to do exactly that (in fact I think she might win the prize for the number of assinine questions in one post) and not only that but cestlavie demands I answer him, like I owe him something. Hilarious.

If you don't like my reasoning, critique it, but as far as I can see that hasn't really happened. The only thing people can come up with is stuff like "what if she sits on his c*ck?" or "would you like me to make you some porn?". The latter I've got to say was probably the highlight of the thread.

Elizabetth - I don't have the stamina (or patience) to get stuck into this discussion but I just wanted to say that your points on this thread (and other similar threads) are spot on.

oh, sorry VS & LS, just saw your posts!
fastmoving thread this!

What I find degrading - and alarming -
is when the sex aspect is almost secondary.

The primary thing, that the viewer is supposed to get off on,
is how much abuse the girl can take.

Spitting, sticking her head in the toilet
while she is very roughly fucked anally
(fucked is the right word here).

I am not into censorship but I think it is worth having a debate about that kind of thing.

So can many other things ShinyHappy, if we had to stop everything that could possibly break up a realtionship then everyone would have to sit on their hands and look at the walls all day.

Shiny - I agree. I don't think it would upset me to see that DP had seen porn but then that's because i'm ok with it. I can understand those that are getting annoyed and that they'd be hurt etc

BUT surely thats the same about anything in a relationship? Those who find their partners have been gambling, flirting, drinking etc.

Thank you Jeremy!

I'll stay and talk but I wanted to point out
that cestlavie is a man, too, right?

i didn't bark at you. I didn't even address the question to you.

i asked a series of questions as a way of exposing the difficulty with making a sweeping generalisation about pornography being wrong per se.

you evidently have a real problem with this which disables your critical faculties to the extent that when someone questions some of the basic assumptions that underpin your argument you either ignore them or denigrate them (without answering any of the questions posed, not to you, but to the those advocating a ban of pornography in general). I'm sorry that you are so emotionally involved in this subject that you can't actually debate it to any great extent.

Elizabetth, I have time and time again asked you about the idea of men being degraded in porn, what is your opinion on this?

I have also stated that some women, I do not know what percentage but I know it must be high (in my friendship group alone, around 90% of the girls like to have their hair pulled for example) enjoy, 'rough sex' they like to be controlled, some are acting out fantasies, some are really enjoying what is being done to them.
Other of course are not.
The same goes for the men, soem of them must have chaffing on their penis' some must have to take some form of drug to keep it up, some must feel degraded when being told what to do by the director, who is not just telling the woman what to do.
Would better rules and regulations around the porn industry not be better than a total ban?

You know DaddyJ, that's a good question.

I think firstly, what is 'humiliating and degrading' is largely subjective in a sexual context. What some people would find 'humiliating', maybe having their hair pulled, being spanked, being talked dirty to, other people would find a real turn on. I would say, if people choose to do something consensually then the assumption has to be is that they either don't find it to be 'humiliating' or they do but they enjoy it. Otherwise why would they consenting to it?

In the context of the professional porn industry though its a little more complex. Performers may also be involved in 'humiliating or degrading' acts despite the fact they find them to be so AND they don't enjoy it BUT because they get paid for it. In this case, I would say, that is their choice. No-one is forcing them to do something, they are choosing to do something in return for money. Clearly, if there is any suggestion that people are being made to do things in any context then that is wholly illegal.

The broader question maybe, is what is the effect on society of people watching this sort of pornography? And the answer is I don't know and (unlike E) I'm not going to jump to conclusions. My suspicion is that it's effect is probably negative, but to what extent I don't know. Research on this seems pretty unclear itself - even the effect of videogame/ film violence on society which has been much more extensively researched is still something of an open-ended discussion.

DJ - I agree that is degrading. Personally YUCK!! I don't know how you police that kinda thing to be honest. My normal argument is that if she's enjoying it then there is no problem BUT we'd have to come up with a way to make sure that is exactly what is happening and that its not JUST because the company has threatened her or JUST for the money.

I get the anal sex is popular (again I dont see why as I always connected anal sex to homosexuality and have to wonder why straight men like to do anal or women like to receive anal but all to their own) but I don't get the spitting or the shoving head down the toilet part.

there is a film called baise moi (sp?) which I personally can't watch and that depicts some of the things you are mentioning. It's not classed as porn, does this come under the same thing though?

sophable: two people have sex - no problem. Two people film themselves having sex... Why? Because their sexuality has been informed by a porn ethic. People view other people having sex... Why? Because their sexuality has been informed by the porn ethic. These are not value-free acts that occur in a vacuum. They are the products of a society that suffers from a severe male-female power imbalance, and that enthusiastically embraces porn.

IMO, anything that commodifies sex - ie, makes it an artefact to be consumed by anyone other than the participants - is morally dubious. I realise that there are degrees, and that there is a world of difference between hardcore rape pornography and mr and mrs average filming themselves on a Saturday night... but if you're asking whether I object to all such activity - well, the answer is yes, I do. (Whether I would make it illegal is a different question.)

I agree with ruty.

I personally dislike porn, have never seriously used it (although the odd bit of erotic literature can have it's allure sometimes) and have no desire to see it. But that's OK, because I don't need to. DH isn't that fussed - or not with me around anyway - so it doesn't impinge on my life. But tits and arse and sex in general do seem to be on sale in a way they weren't 20 yrs ago, and more importantly used to sell things. Is that refreshingly open, or is it commercialisation in the name of openess? Is telling women that they have to be up for it all the time, and what's more, look the part, really any better than telling girls that to even think about sex made them cheap sluts?

Maybe that's the problem. Sex is so personal that marketing it is always going to be difficult.

And yes, just seen your post DaddyJ, that's right, am a guy too.

daddyj, regarding the horrible sounding scene you describe. you can't ban something because you feel it's horrible.

you can enshrine in law protection for the subjects in the film. you can make sure that the woman and man are not underage. you can make sure they are adequately paid and that they are not forced into it.

but you can't expunge sex acts that you find odious just because you don't like them (i'm not suggesting you're saying you would advocate that).