to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

norma - you might not find it exploitative, but surely that language is, de facto, degrading?

E - Either you're refusing to listen to what we are saying or something else is going on that you're not telling us.

There is plenty of hetrosexual straight down to earth porn that not only doesn't show the graphic details. Not all porn is sticking it in someone's arse and coming all over the tits while sucking on someone else's cock. Which btw there is nothing wrong with anyway.
Even if we could prove to you this you wouldn't accept it anyway.

and you haven't PROVEN anything - You've given us an interview with an ex porn star and that's about it. So all you've PROVEN to me is that there is a woman out there who didn't enjoy herself.

You're being very wrong in critising what norma enjoys sexually and I think you should apologise.

Also, check out this site.

www.sexyseductions.com/entry.htm. There is your proof that not ALL porn is bad! Which is the point we've been trying to get across all night.

I'm not really seeing how that site differs from much other porn LuckySalem. Here's what they advertise:

Sin-O-Matic - virtual sex where you control the action! Daily Video Clips - Highest quality streaming videos
Toon Vision - interactive fantasy hardcore cartoons
Lesbian Encounters - Sexy girl-on-girl content. Outrageous Orgies - Incredible group sex pics Adult XXX TV - Streaming hardcore video
Freak Show - Weird sex, and bizarre fetishes Let's Play Doctor - indulge in those hospital fantasies RawNews - the news you can use

and here is what the site maker says about the porn she shows.

Sexy Seductions is an erotic website that has been designed by a woman FOR women. I've vetted the photos to ensure that they are both sexy AND respectful to women. I made sure they included heaps of cunnilingus and hardcore sex, as well as the good stuff like hugs and kissing. They cover different scenarios, like a romantic picnic, a doctor seducing a nurse, and a woman who is persuaded to try bondage for the very first time. I know these photos turn me on, and I think you'll like them too.

I've also written the erotic stories from a woman's point of view, and I've researched articles about things we're all interested in; things like female ejaculation, finding the G spot, sex and romance tips, and of course, how to seduce a man. You know you're getting good quality porn for women at Sexy Seductions, and better yet, you also get access to an expanding FOR WOMEN section at Ladyverifier.

Also what about the series that was made to show how to better at having sex. Can't remember what it was called. In many a shop I've seen it on the same shelf as porn and some of it is quite graphic but clearly doesn't portray ONLY what you think of as dirty.

That's called marketing LuckySalem. Porn is a bit of an Alice in Wonderland world, where nothing is quite what it seems. Just because she says it's respectful to women doens't mean that it is.

"They cover different scenarios, like a romantic picnic, a doctor seducing a nurse, and a woman who is persuaded to try bondage for the very first time."

This is standard porn crap. BTW a lot of nurses hate the pornification of their profession - they find it incredibly offensive.

"Also what about the series that was made to show how to better at having sex."

Yeah this sounds like more of the kind of thing they'd market to women. We're always supposed to be on a self-improvement jag, whether it's more confidence, losing weight or fifty top tips to give a better blow job.

E - I'm not arguing no more!! You asked us to prove it to you, i've done it twice and you've ignored it or twisted it!! which is exactly what I said you would do before I mentioned anything.

Therefore you're not worth the breath or the time its taken me to look into these things to try and show you why I think the way I do.

I half respected your opinion but I'm afraid I don't anymore seeing as you're not willing to converse about it but just dead end everything.

I will however, happily have a conversation with the likes of TMMJ & OBD who have the same ideas as you but a better way of explaining them.

I must say I don't see a huge problem with the porn industry really, it's not like its constantly flaunted in our faces,and readily available to children. For example, the don't advertise porn in the cinema next to the kids' club and rom coms; and unless i'm mistaken porn channels generally do not start broadcasting until around 10pm and you have to subscribe to them. DP and I have wathced porn together on occasion, and we both use it for our own pleasure individually.Not all porn uses the degrading language you mention E. It's all a matter of opinion, and if you don't like it there's no real reason why you should come into contact with it.

Okay, Elizabetth, I'll provide some information on non-exploitative pornography having just done a little surfing around some industry standard internet tracking sites, here are some facts (you can visit the sites to corroborate if you wish):

Of the most visited 100 sites in the UK in the last month, the two sites with sexual content are:

• youporn.com (amateur)
• adultfriendfinder.com (adult dating)

Of the most visited 500 sites globally in the
last month, there are, several sex sites. These are (in the following order):

• youporn.com (amateur)
• adultfriendfinder.com (swinger/dating)
• hotornot.com (non-nude as far as I can tell)
• pornotube.com (mainly amateur from the look)
• yuvutu.com (amateur)
• freeones.com (naked/ topless celebs)
• bangbros.com (professional)
• myfreepaysite (professional)

From this it looks like the most popular sites for porn are amateur sites. Please feel free anyone to visit the sites themselves but by amateur I mean clearly home-made. If you check them out and hould you then think these are not home-made or consensual or you think that they are being posted without the woman's knowledge then please let me know why.

I also ran a search on a tracking site to find the most searched for terms globally (in English) in the last 24 hours. Rather than revealing desperate levels of depravity, the sex-related terms in the top 50 were:

• sex
• porn
• youporn
• pussy
• boobs
• free porn
• tits
• nudity
• lesbians
• big tits
• xxx
• you porn

Now, people might not like these, but to my mind they're pretty tame and hardly suggest people search for porn of the type you suggest is more prevalent. Rather than people looking for slts and whres, they're actually searching for boobs and big tits.

If you can provide similar evidence on what you're describing then, honestly, please do. But don't just run a google search as you've done already; the number of 'hits' does not corrolate to the number of pages/ amount of data out there (if you want to discuss why I'll happily do so).

cestlavie - agree on the underage question - we are very confused as a society about sex, adolescents and children - I don't think that this is caused by pornography. More that demand for this kind of pornography is boosted by society's confusion.

Still keen to know where we might draw the line. Are smutty books ok?

I personally think smutty books can be worse because I'm almost positive there is no age limit on them. BUT I admit the language is much more creative than porn films are so am unsure...

but ceslavie, have noticed that many sites, even the most 'lite' sites, routinely have something about sluts and whores. it's the default vocab isn't it?

ps are we asterisking for sensitivities or because we might shut MN down.?? (really)

i quite like to call a spade a spade then we all know what it really is we're talking about.

ban mills and boon-surely not!

OBM - I didn't even think about that, OOops. I've just happily typed away. Maybe we should do it so MN doesn't get in trouble.

what about carry on films?

ls do you think they would? are they their own server so to speak? or are they hosted?
we could test it out..

OBM - I have no idea, Is there something somewhere that says whether you can swear or not? I really wouldn't want them to get in trouble, I don't think they could get in trouble and I assume if we're not allowed it would have been mentioned WAY before this.

If you wanna test, I'll keep a lookout for you!! lol

Right we're not talking about general sex sites cestlavie, we're talking about pornography. So if you remove the non-porn sites you come up with this:

• youporn.com (amateur)
• pornotube.com (mainly amateur from the look)
• yuvutu.com (amateur)
• bangbros.com (professional)
• myfreepaysite (professional)

So the top paid-for porn site is BangBros. BangBros is a horribly exploitative site that is famous for "gonzo" porn where women are used and abused by men with plenty of insults and hatred thrown in for good measure.

As for your list of what items people search for, well that's another complaint about porn that it reduces women to body parts. I guess your list is just more evidence of that.

Elizabetth: as other posters have noted you ignore points made against you.

You asked: show me non-exploitative porn sites if they exist. The top three globally are non-exploitative. How does that sit with your assertion?

You said: people are interested in slts, whres etc. The main search terms for sex are far more tame than that. How does that sit with your assertion?

(By the way, I don't really care about asterisks but I don't want to offend people's sensibilities and other people on here seem to be using them)

cestlavie you're wasting your breath.

I leave and come back, yet nothing has changed.

Elizabetth, It seems you have your opinions, and a handful of links to interviews/porn sites, that you display to give us 'proof' that all women in the porn industry are being degraded etc.

I could find double the amount to show you that Elvis Presley is in fact alive, and possibly having tea with Saddam Hussein.

Your opinion, is very much that, opinion, notfact, yet you base your argument on it as if it is such.

Are you ever going to answer the questions put to you about women who enjoy being controlled during sex? women who enjoy being filmed? men who are being exploited? or will you just say, yet again 'this is not a Q&A'?

Everytime anyone ahs directed a question toward you about which you do not have a link to hand you ignore it, or twist it into being about you. I personally have questioned the arguments against porn that you have posted, this is why I direct them to you.

Madamez speaks a lot of sense, and is probably the person who is the most knowledgeable about this subject, with first hand experience, rather than some random links or one or two isolated cases from an online search, I think I'd be more inclined to believe her than someone who has a biased view and isn't willing to listen to any reaonable arguments.

"You've got a pretty low bar set"

I find that quite insulting tbh Elizabetth. Just because your bar is set higher doesn't mean mine is low.

LuckySalem: the sad thing is that there is genuinely a good and difficult debate to have on this, particularly about how you regulate the industry and protect people in it and what the effect of porn is (if any) on society, but it looks like we're not going to have it.