to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography?

[Elizabetth]

Particularly as porn has become so much more mainstream in the past few years, I'd have thought that people would be concerned about premature sexualisation of children. Also I'm surprised that so many women are fine with it given that the humiliation and degradation of women is the central theme of pornography. You only have to look at the titles to realise that.

AS DO SOME WOMEN ELIZABETTH!

and who decided it wasnt a q & a sessions? is that breaking the rule or something? if people ask you a question why can you not answer it? unless its because you dont have an answer

Yes Orm, for many, but not for all.
People enjoy exhibitionism, quite a lot of people in fact, or such things as sex clubs and orgies would not exist.

I don't give porn much thought. I thought porn movies and mags were produced for 15 year old German boys - something for them to do in their bedrooms when they are not writing computer viruses. I would hate to be married to someone who used porn. I would find it misogynistic and personally insulting.

ONebatmother, the trouble is that your definition is entirely subjective: not everyone feels that being fucked is inherently degrading.

And the objectification of women as mothers and carers is just as damaging: the endless attacks on women's choices regarding motherhood, the abuse of women who are percieved as 'selfish' for wanting to work, to have independent lives, to choose when they will become mothers etc - and the constant, constant propaganda to the effect that a woman must hand over her life to one man or she has 'failed' is far more degrading than the wide variety of messages portrayed in the wide variety of porn out there.

Have you taken on board my opinions LuckyUnderpants - that porn is misogynist and damaging to women? No? Then why on earth should I take on yours?

Madamez talked about people being controlling, but I can't think of anything more controlling than a demand that I need to take on opinions I disagree with.

VictorianSqualor I see where you're coming from too, having spent a good old while in the same (quite fun at times) place!

I dunno though. I think it's all gone too far in the wrong direction to completely renegotiate its meanings, structures, uses.

anyway enough already. I have work to do!! I must do it now!!

bloody hell stayed up till 1 yacking this porno thing and up at 5am.

If exhibitionism is so rare, why the huge number of applicants to appear on things like the X Factor and BigBrother?

Madamez - but we weren't discussing other ways in which women are undermined.

madamez, sheesh, i don't think that fucking is degrading!

i do think that being fucked,and fucked over, is though.

ELizabetth: there is a difference between acknowledging other people's opinions which differ from yours and insisting that everyone who disagrees with you is either misinformed, mad or lying.

sexual exhibitionism

i havent given you an opinion to take on board E, you dont know my opinion on porn. I not asking you take on my opinion, but what i have seen on this thread you are not prepared to take on board anyone's opnion that doesnt agree with your own.

"ELizabetth: there is a difference between acknowledging other people's opinions which differ from yours and insisting that everyone who disagrees with you is either misinformed, mad or lying."

The only one I'll give you is misinformed and really you can quite easily deal with that by showing where your information comes from or what your are basing your opinions on. I've certainly done that. I don't see why I should take people's arguments seriously who have nothing concrete to back them up.

I haven't called anyone mad or a liar so that's just more BS smear tactics from your side.

pot. kettle. black. elizabeth.

you have studiously ignored every reasoned argument which contradicts your own points. if those of us not in agreement with you are trying to silence you, shouting you down and belittling you, then you are doing the same to us. in fact, none of those things are going on here; what is happening is aclled a debate. a discussion. an argumnet perhaps. but it involves each person saying something, being responded to, and then saying something further. we are ALL doing that.

your apparent persecution complex does your argument no favours, frankly.

Elizabetth, I have taken on your opinions and even agreed that in some instances, yes porn is degrading, and that some women are forced into these films.
I also agree that some men will watch these films and then decide that that is the way sex should be.
You still hven't taken any of my opinions on though, I'm not aying I expect you to agree, but there are two sides to this, that only the pro-porn posters seem to be able to admit.
I also know many people who enjoy the kind of sex you see on these films, I for one like to be controlled during sex, I like it quite rough, and yes, I get off on it, so maybe some of the women portraying this kind of sex find it a turn on???
I'm not the kind of girl that throws my man down on the bed and gives him a good seeing to, it isn't what does it for me, does that mean he exploits me when he does what he knows I want him to do?? Because though it may look like he is in control, I assure you, he would never do anything I dont want, so I am VERY much in control.

good point swedes - just because there is worse out there doesn't make this not bad. iyswim


ok lost the power of speech and the will to live, wooork!

IN any other industry (ie every single industry in the world) where some vulnerable workers are abused and exploited, the right thing to do is to protect their rights and help them organise themselves. Producing sexually explicit material for entertainment is just as valid as producing music, children's fairy stories or luxury chocolates. The more people who get involved in producing porn who want to make stuff that's sexy and fun (and financially rewarding) but without coercion or exploitation, the more the industry's conditions will improve.

What themildmanneredjanitor said.

mmmj what office have you been in that allows men to have naked women on their screen saver thats never been allowed in any of the work places ive been in! tell me the company as i would like to report them?

"i havent given you an opinion to take on board E, you dont know my opinion on porn. I not asking you take on my opinion, but what i have seen on this thread you are not prepared to take on board anyone's opnion that doesnt agree with your own."

You could pretty much say that about anybody on this thread. In fact some of the pro-porn people objected to my opinions so much that some of them were reduced to insults. Funny how you missed that.

Stop commenting on me. I'm not the topic here, pornography is. If you arent' going to join in that discussion you're just trolling the thread.

I really don't think pornography will ever go away whether we like it or not - sex is such a complicated mixture of biology and psychology that there will always be a huge demand for porn in all its infinite variety.

Would it help to suppress it? I don't know. I do think though that there are far more worrying things coming out of mainstream entertainment and the beauty and fashion industries, that have a far more pernicious effect on our self-esteem as women. But that's a whole other thread.

And then there's the pay gap - at least porn stars tend to be better paid than, say, most care workers (I'm guessing here...)

"If you can find heterosexual porn that doesn't degrade and humiliate women then I'd be interested to see it. The problem for pro-porners is that they can't come up with it, and even if they did it still doesn't contradict the vact that the overwhelming majority of porn is misogynist and damaging to women."

I'm happy to make some especially for you if you like??? I have a dh and a webcam...any preferences as to content?

"young women want to go on big brother and get their tits out for the nation to see because thy have absorbed from our society that that is what women should do.we have sexualised our society to such an extent that it is deemd normal to want to fuck someone you have only just met on national tv, in order to get your picture on the front page of the national newspapers.

20 years ago it wan't acceptable.
and now young girls are made to feel like prudes if they don't like the men in the office having a naked woman as their screen save, that they have no sense of humour if they find it embarrassing to have womens breasts on show on the supermarket shelf.

it is now normal to shave most of your pubic hair off/have plastic tits/wear thongs sticking up over the top of your trousers.

doesn't make it right."

the fact is, mmj, that 20 years ago a woman bearing her breasts for anyone other than the one man who was entitled to see them was summarily dismissed as a slag, and a totally unworthy person.

and today, the same slating still applies. the woman who bears her breasts on tv is summarily dismissed as a slag, and a stupid misguided attention grabbing one at that, and once again, a totally unworthy person.

now, wheres the difference there? huh? and why why why is the womans entire personality and character decided by all and sundry based on whether or not she has kept her skin covered modestly. what is wrong with the human body that it must never be shown at all costs? esp a womans.