To want to give my children a private education?

[NobodyKnowsTiddlyPom]

Really need some input to try and persuade my husband!
My three are all quite bright academically and they are all pretty good with music too. Youngest (9) is very sporty as well.

We’ve recently applied for scholarships and bursaries at a local private school and my husband is still very much on the fence about it all.

The two girls (13, 12) have been offered a total of 70% and 75% discount with scholarships and bursaries and the youngest has been offered a total of 55%

I know that my eldest would do well in state school regardless but I think the younger two would absolutely flourish with the smaller class sizes and the sporting facilities on offer.

My husband thinks we’d be better off putting the £15-£20k per year in our pension pots. I’m not currently working but I’m looking for a full time job from September. I’m a teacher so my salary would cover the fees and my mother in law has also offered to contribute £3-£4K a year towards it. His salary is plenty for us to live on comfortably.

DH would like us to sit down with a list of pros and cons for them to attend this school and I’m hoping that mumsnet can help with a list of pros!

wow @ purpleboy

did you read back to yourself what you wrote ?
clearly not 😂

@WombatChocolate It’s in the midlands. Top 20 independent school for sport and international baccalaureate in the UK. Well known for its pastoral support and SEN support. I think it’s biggest problem is attracting the cream of the crop day pupils as we also have the UK’s ‘boarding school of the year’ locally and they are renowned for the calibre of their music and sporting teaching. That’s where my children have been having their swimming and music lessons.

More sports
More Extra curricular activities
Smaller classes
Better food at lunch and longer lunch break
Nice learning atmosphere. Mainly surrounded by other children who also want to learn and do well.

In General a nice learning experience. I am not saying the will necessary do better because of going private but the learning experience is much better with not disruption to learning.

I think £20k/year in the context of your total income is just too much.

OP if your kids really are aspiring musicians then, kindly, a school orchestra is never going to be anywhere near the standard to give them a meaningful musical experience. Do they attend a conservatoire junior department? You should be looking at that, and potentially a specialist music school if they are good enough (and if they aren’t then maybe rethink the career choice).

It sounds like they could get all the stuff you want for them via outside activities but it’s too difficult for you to commit to the taxiing and admin of that (fair enough!). In a few years presumably they can start making their own way to at least some things? In the meantime you could put some of the money towards paying someone to help with that?

@WombatChocolate

Tell us about the school. Where would it appear in terms of top 20, top 50, top 100, top 200 in terms of league tables? Where is it geographically?

It isn’t the right time of year for bursary offers I’d any offers at the moment. What kind of school has places still and ones which they can offer with a significant bursary and scholarship unless they have a. Number of empty places and need to get bums in seats and some fees, even if not full fees in?

I agree actually, it would arose suspicion for me as well. schools which are decent but aren’t ‘top tier’ or in the south east are pretty strict with bursaries too. the bursaries are usually awarded in year 7 and year 12 and the pot is finite. Even with covid delays the acceptance dates will have been and gone. Do you know much about the school? If they’re struggling for numbers hugely that’s probably not good news

Just to clarify, is it top 20 of IB schools? Without wanting to demean it, of course there aren’t that many IB schools.

Is it less of an academic school but one with a focus on pastoral care and SEN support, whilst also doing a good job economically? Just trying to picture what we are looking at here.

Is it a smallish school and is it one that is possibly struggling for numbers rather?

Why do you think they are willing and able to offer places this late in the day after most popular schools are already full? Is there something exceptional about your children....especially as there are 2 of them and you need places for 2 at this point? Sorry if I’ve missed something, but what you are describing in terms of your income and assets and the discounts being offered are very unusual for the standard offers time, never mind now.

@FolkSongSweet

I think £20k/year in the context of your total income is just too much.

OP if your kids really are aspiring musicians then, kindly, a school orchestra is never going to be anywhere near the standard to give them a meaningful musical experience. Do they attend a conservatoire junior department? You should be looking at that, and potentially a specialist music school if they are good enough (and if they aren’t then maybe rethink the career choice).

It sounds like they could get all the stuff you want for them via outside activities but it’s too difficult for you to commit to the taxiing and admin of that (fair enough!). In a few years presumably they can start making their own way to at least some things? In the meantime you could put some of the money towards paying someone to help with that?

I agree with your second paragraph completely. If they actually want to excel in the music industry I'd expect a G8 by around 13 in their first instrument. If they aren't attending a county youth orchestra (at minimum) by now then there's a problem. No school orchestra is going to facilitate the progression needed to be a professional musician.

@dancealittleclosertome

I always raise an eyebrow slightly when parents say they've chosen a private school over a state school because of its 'excellent pastoral care'. The 'customers' of a private school are the parents i.e., those they wish to keep happy. Therefore, in a situation where a parent is perhaps emotionally damaging their child let's say, the private school is in difficulty because it might be unwilling to report that as a safeguarding issue for fear of losing the income from that customer. A state school has no such dilemma. Equally, let's say a child at private school has been mercilessly bullying your child - but the bully has siblings in school, and more to come - again, state school would have no problems in organising said bully to be placed in another school on a managed move, but again, private school would be unwilling to piss off the bully's parents who are a lucrative income-stream.

There is a conflict of interests.

I totally agree, my son was bullied out of a private school after his little brother was kicked out due to his SEN. The bullies were the bursars son and the other had 3 siblings in the school.....

Grade 8 at age 13 is a big ask of piano players! I don't know about other instruments but I'm unconvinced on that comment made by a pp.

When you say ‘it struggles to attract the cream of the crop’ it makes it sound like it’s not a high performing school.

I’d just think carefully about if this school is worth paying £20k from your income for.

Are the academics really so much better than you’d get from your state school, especially if you funded a bit of tutoring etc. Are the extra curricular worth £20k out of your net income?

The lower the family income, the more the true ‘cost’ of the fees in terms of sacrifices made are. Even when half or more of the fees have been funded by the school, £20k from an income of under £100k once taxed, is a very big proportion gone and you really have to ask whether it’s worth it. It might be, but the Q needs asking.

For example, could the girls have got places at the other more well known school that is attracting the cream of the crop? Would they have got places there and would they have got the discounts there? Maybe not, but the key question is if this school is good enough for your family to make the sacrifices needed and if it offers enugh beyond what your alternatives are.

It concerns me that they are offering such a discount at this stage to 2 kids. Without making any reflection on your children at all, it makes me think the school looks desperate to draw people in. Is there any possibility that his is the case when you think about it and the flattery of the offer of bursary and scholarships and the idea of private school has distorted your view of seeing this school for what it really is and isn’t?

Apologies...I might be totally goi g down the wrong path without this and do t mean to abuse the school, but it’s worth considering, because what you’ve described is so unqualified for a. Hugh,y sought after school.

YANBU

@purpleboy

I have 2 dd's at private school. For us the pros are:

Smaller class sizes
Excellent pastoral support
Wraparound care
Brilliant extra curricular activities

Tbh whilst this might sound horrible, the children have much better manners, doors are always held open, all children saying good morning etc.. when compared with local schools I have been in the difference is amazing.
The schools aspirations for its children are good, there is more encouragement to aim higher.

Good luck.

Funny cos I'm finding the school i work I work in which is independent the manners are much worse than the local primary I volunteer at !!! It's something we are trying to address but I do feel some of it comes from parents and their attitude to us too ....

We sent our two to private school on a tiny income compared to yours OP. It was a huge sacrifice and worth every penny.

I have taught in both the private and state sectors. Imo there are usually massive advantages to have an independent school education, many of which have already been recorded here.

If I could have afforded to send her, my dd would definitely have been educated in the private sector.

The only advice I would offer here op is that, as you have three children, you offer the opportunity to all or none. In one of your earlier posts you said that your eldest child would still thrive in the State sector, unlike your other two. You have no way of knowing this and if you are wrong your eldest child will never forget that you made her different to the other two. It's not just about GCSEs and A levels, it's about extra opportunities on every level; cultural, sport, confidence. You mention that you don't want your dh blaming you for the decision later, or you blaming him. It would be even worse if one dc blamed you for being disadvantaged.

If your children love school and are compliant, hours of lessons can be disrupted in the State through disaffected kids in their class, even in the best of State provision. The truth is that a State school has to go through endless hoops before moving a disruptive pupil on to somewhere hopefully more suitable or at least not spoiling the chances of others. Of course you get difficult/disruptive kids in Independent schools too but they aren't allowed to disrupt for long. When others start to complain believe me swift action is taken. They need the fees to pay staff ext and if too many parents vote with their feet the school can't function.

Of course if you did divide them up the child at State school might never come across disruptive classes, but they might, and if it effects them they could blame you. Also the kids at private school would have different memories from the other child which could be very divisive within the family.

Sorry to be so long winded on this op. You are probably not thinking of not sending them all, just wanted to be sure every angle had been considered. Not easy for you as parents to decide but, fwiw I would go for it if I could

This thread is so confusing and I have a son in a private school. I can’t wrap my head around the bursaries.

Name change so can't be traced to our school! Both my sons go to private school and have both academic and sports scholarships. The academic ones range from 10-20% (on average) up to 50% (non means tested). In our school, academic scholarships are only given at the point of entry and the amount doesn't change over their time at the school. One son was awarded his sports scholarship after a year at the school, but this has no fee reduction element (same for art and music). Your school may well be different but I'd be a bit wary of hoping for a greater fee reduction in the future, as the scholarships tend to be to attract pupils to that school, perhaps less so when they're there and a captive market.

We're lucky enough to be well off but it's still an awful lot of money when you tot it up and it would be a great deposit for a flat or whatever. Our school has fantastic sports facilities, regular Saturday (and mid-week) fixtures down to D/E teams in most year groups for the three major sports and specialist coaching. Both boys play two sports at county level and, while they play for clubs as well, they receive around 6 hours of training in their sports each week at school plus matches on top. This is not necessarily exclusive to private schools, some of our local state schools excel in sports too.

That said, if my kids weren't into music, drama or sports, honestly I'm not sure I'd pay for private school as we have academically excellent state schools and, for us, I wouldn't feel we're getting our "money's worth". Nor would I pay the fees if it had a significant impact on my standard of living and required a lot of financial compromises.

My friend got a bursary for her son at a very well known private school but she had to prove their household income was under £45,000 pa. They were able to achieve this by her hardly working for all of his school life, but they did have to submit their accounts annually.

@WombatChocolate I can’t see a successful well renowned private school offering 3 seperate kids such high bursaries with an income of over 100k

• I would be questioning how well this school is doing tbh.

Bellisima234 that's what happened to our friends daughter. Her bully came from a wealthy family and so they didn't want to loose their donations. Poor girl was mercilessly bullied. They pulled her out and thankfully she managed to get back on track in a new school. Pastoral care isn't as objective as some would like to believe. The school is a business first and foremost. That drives most decisions behind the scenes.

A lot of people won't believe this, probably because they've never had to deal with it but as soon as something goes wrong then they can potentially start to see the darker side.

I know of the same in a state school where the bullies were connected to the business manager. And it’s very difficult to address schools which are academies and not LA schools. There’s no pastoral care in my child’s state school but they don’t really need it. As people have said it’s about individual schools and what you most need from the school and whether it’s a good fit for your child and family.

That is an enormous discount if you mean that you will only need to pay a quarter of the usual fees for the eldest and a little more for the others. Sounds like a no brainier to me!

No brainer, even!

From very recent experience where a private school was apparently outstanding in every respect (all inspections, national reputation) it has proved anything but.

I have been completely horrified by a number of very different issues that have arisen and am pulling one child out and putting them in state and keeping the others in state when I was considering moving them to private.

I now believe I have failed my children by even considering private.

I hope your private school experience (if you choose that path) is better.

The school is a business first and foremost. That drives most decisions behind the scenes. A lot of people won't believe this, probably because they've never had to deal with it but as soon as something goes wrong then they can potentially start to see the darker side.

Ladydayblues1 I am not the only one who feels this then...

I went to a state grammar and would say that this decision depends heavily on the alternative state schools. The school environment is HUGELY important - if you DCs are surrounded by like-minded pupils who want to learn then they will have a better chance of succeeding (same with the manners etc). I agree with PP remark about whether or not you could provide all the benefits of the private school with the extra money - BUT also consider how they will develop in the other secondary school environments... you know your DCs best and if you think that they will not be able to realise their potential in the state schools, go for the private education.