Email from school about DD

[Thoughtsfortheday]

This isn’t really an AIBU and more of a pondering but seemed the best place to put it.

Had an email from the school yesterday (from tutor teacher) about concern for daughters behaviour, being late to tutor in the morning with no good reasons and also constant breeches of school uniform and being difficult (in front of tutor and head of year) when asked to resolve. (for context grey oversized hoodie with sleeves rolled up on top of blazer, tie not tightened, necklaces on top of shirt etc nothing revolutionary,)

Just to be clear I was absolutely mortified when I received it and was really cross with her last night, and she has had her phone and iPad taken off her and I have cancelled a sleepover she had planned for this weekend.

My slight pondering/AIBU (which I absolutely have not shared with my DD) is I feel it must be quite tricky to be a teenage girl atm, the world is pushing us not to conform anymore, encouraging women to wear and say what they want, to be able to express ourselves without judgement and identify as we please, great, I’m a big believer! School then however is the polar opposite, with rules, no room for fluidity, a one shape fits all approach.

The reason that she’s been late to class this week is due to a heavy flow period and wanting to change her pad at the last moment before going into a double hour class. She said she had explained this to her teacher but they have deemed this unacceptable.

I have spoke to her about good timekeeping and how she has plenty of time to do this and get along to class but a little bit of me (granted the bias DM) thinks give her a break.

Sorry for the rambling, I have a phone meeting with the school this morning and just trying to work out which approach to take.

In general I agree she should follow the rules and not be rude to teachers, but I do think this country has a weird obsession with school uniforms. Most of Europe and USA don't have them and people manage to dress for work later in life just fine, including those who have to wear a uniform for work. I spent half my childhood abroad (no uniform) and the other half in the UK (strict uniform). In the foreign country everyone wore jeans and T shirts or shorts and T shirts, nothing crazy or inappropriate. No one felt the need to rebel on that front, because school clothing was a complete non issue.
In the UK school the teachers wasted so much time policing pointless things, like whether you were wearing a bracelet or the right colour school jumper. It achieved nothing, it didn't improve discipline or learning in any way and the kids were constantly trying to see how much they could get away with, eg rolled up skirts, crazy hair.

ideal but neither is conformity for conformity’s sake
But it's school uniform. There really isn't room within it for self expression. Whether you agree with the principle of uniform or not is another thing entirely.
Op's dd is at a school that has strict uniform policies, so it is what it is.

I am not a fan of school uniform either, but that surely isn't the point. Lobby the school to get rid of it if you like, or encourage your kids to campaign towards that end, but until such a campaign is successful, they need to suck it up and follow the rules.

Why have you allowed her to go, dressed inappropriately and wearing a necklace?

surely you are home when she gets back, wearing inappropriate clothing and jewellery?

😂😂

As has been said, you have no idea what your teenager looks like whilst they are actually at school. It is very easy to remove "banned" items and roll down your skirt before you get home (or the reverse after you leave).

Ultimately, she will have to wear the school uniform correctly and turn up on time to lessons. That is going to be the end point of these conversations with her and the school. The rules are the rules. She can wear hoodies and necklaces on her own time and the teachers can't hold the whole lesson waiting for her or have her constantly miss the first five minutes of teaching. I concur with other posters that the school don't have meetings with parents for fun, there must be something really disruptive going on here.

However... you can certainly have a go at getting to that end point in a non-adversarial manner. Particularly with the periods thing, I'd be interested to just ask her to tell me all about it and then sit and listen to what she has to say without interrupting. Maybe there is a real problem here that you can both solve together. Maybe not and she's just being a teenage turd, but there's no harm in giving her an open mind and a listening ear first. I do think you can tell her, though, that if it's so bad that the school have got in touch with you then you are going to support them in enforcing consequences for rule-breaking and consider some of your own.

At the end of the day, she will have to wear uniform correctly and turn up on time. If she's cold in her uniform, buy her a pack of long sleeved M&S thermal vests for underneath!

The reason that she’s been late to class this week is due to a heavy flow period and wanting to change her pad at the last moment before going into a double hour class. She said she had explained this to her teacher but they have deemed this unacceptable.

I was this teen and I was so embarrassed, really flooding is just a nightnmare when you are a teen.

I would be 100% supporting her on this. I remember that feeling of standing up at the end of a lesson and feeling a flood and calculating how much time to get to the loo, where the loos were and how to get to the next class.

But I would say to her - if she wants them to help with that, then she has to conform with uniform.
Loads of dd's school wear hoodies instead of coats, but then they have to remove them at the school gate. Then they have to find their blazers (stuffed in their bag) and put them on. Sometimes it is cold and wet doing this at the school gate, but basically, that is your option if you choose the hoodie.
Buck up with uniform, jewellry etc.

as to the whole freedom thing, well I allow mine to do that 100% out of school, their choice of black nail varnish, emo hairdos etc, all removed by Monday 9 am. Summer 2019, after the last day of term, dd1 (aged 14) shaved her hair to 5 mm, bleached it, dyed it bright blue, and set off for America with the scouts. Awesome child.

(which I absolutely have not shared with my DD) is I feel it must be quite tricky to be a teenage girl atm, the world is pushing us not to conform anymore, encouraging women to wear and say what they want, to be able to express ourselves without judgement and identify as we please, great, I’m a big believer! School then however is the polar opposite, with rules, no room for fluidity, a one shape fits all approach.

it's not tricky at all to learn to stand up for yourself and be independent WHILE respecting school rules and others.

You cannot teach a child or teen to "wear what they want"
When you have a job, you have to obey to a certain dress code, more or less strict, more or less casual but there are limits!

to be able to express ourselves without judgement
said who? We are all entitled to an opinion, you need to teach them that every point of view will have criticism and opposition, of course you get judged! You have to learn to ignore it though.

On another note, I'd see a GP about the heavy flow, periods should not become a disability and stop the poor kid from having a normal life.

I find acupuncture to be a big help.

I would also strongly complain to the schools if kids are not allowed to leave a class for 2 hours to go to the toilets - especially because of periods.

I’d take it as two separate things. The tie, necklaces, attitude need to be addressed as behavioural problems. The period issues and wearing something over her blazer - is she cold? - are things I’d back her on and try to come up with solutions for. The fear of leaking onto the back of my skirt in public is still something that haunts me. The breaks between lessons at school often aren’t enough to get to the loo and then the next classroom. Period pants plus a towel or a towel plus a tampon might help. Is she in pain too? Does she take in paracetamol or ibuprofen? Something like heatgen thermal tops worn under her shirt might keep her warmer and a longline one would keep her back warm.

I'm probably biased as my children attend a democratic school without uniforms. I think you've done the right thing in supporting the rules of the setting your daughter attends but I completely agree with your inner ramblings!

Letting children express themselves through clothes will not prevent them from dressing smartly at work.. in the same way that letting a toddler play in a sand pit won't.. they're children/ teens and expressing themselves is part of growing up and learning who they are/ want to be.

For what it's worth when my kids (secondary) school was having trouble with students arriving late they voted as a community (teachers and students) to push the start of classes and end of day back an hour which pretty much solved the problem (although as long as people are respectful being a few minutes late isn't a big deal..). I appreciate this isn't a solution for larger schools where there's more to manage and obviously staff have outside commitments but in my experience not enforcing fairly pointless rules and allowing the children some autonomy and having rules with obvious justifications (such as not hurting each other, showing respect to everybody etc) produces independent people who actually enjoy learning and focus on it rather than rebelling against rules that don't make sense to them..
Not sure that's any help or if I've been clear enough but just wanted to say that I think what you're saying is right, even if it's not practical!

Just interested spudsuliked are you in the U.K.? There aren’t many democratic schools here.

@NicolaDunsire

Just interested spudsuliked are you in the U.K.? There aren’t many democratic schools here.

Hi yes in the UK, it's a shame there aren't more democratic schools here as we've found them fantastic, my children are pretty natural rule followers and shy by nature but we've found it's given them so much confidence and a trust rather than fear of adults which was not my experience of school at all.

Yes I think it’s a great approach. My kids went to a democratic forest school for a while when we home educated. But in mainstream now...

Sorry if it's been said but I also suspect it couid be how she's talking to teachers and her attitude rather than these separate issues.

@ChochoCrazyCat

In general I agree she should follow the rules and not be rude to teachers, but I do think this country has a weird obsession with school uniforms. Most of Europe and USA don't have them and people manage to dress for work later in life just fine, including those who have to wear a uniform for work. I spent half my childhood abroad (no uniform) and the other half in the UK (strict uniform). In the foreign country everyone wore jeans and T shirts or shorts and T shirts, nothing crazy or inappropriate. No one felt the need to rebel on that front, because school clothing was a complete non issue. In the UK school the teachers wasted so much time policing pointless things, like whether you were wearing a bracelet or the right colour school jumper. It achieved nothing, it didn't improve discipline or learning in any way and the kids were constantly trying to see how much they could get away with, eg rolled up skirts, crazy hair.

@ChochoCrazyCat

spent half my childhood abroad (no uniform) and the other half in the UK (strict uniform). In the foreign country everyone wore jeans and T shirts or shorts and T shirts, nothing crazy or inappropriate. No one felt the need to rebel on that front, because school clothing was a complete non issue.

Most developing world countries have even the poorest kids in uniform - they take immense pride in what they wear.

They don't rebel. they're desperate to learn and see education as an immense privilege.

Letting children express themselves through clothes will not prevent them from dressing smartly at work.. in the same way that letting a toddler play in a sand pit won't.. they're children/ teens and expressing themselves is part of growing up and learning who they are/ want to be.

fine, but not at school.
Uniform or no uniform.

But the thread is not about being for or against uniforms. As someone who has experienced both, I am 100% in favour of school uniforms anyway.

Regardless, there's always a dress code to follow anyway.

I think that although we do encourage our dc to be individual if they are in a setting with a set of rules and uniform they need to learn they have to follow them. This is getting them ready to be an adult and have a job. Most jobs even without a uniform have a dress code and not following it in the workplace is not acceptable so why should it be acceptable at school because dc want to be individual?
Re lateness and period again she needs to learn to manage time and periods as again when an adult depending on job being late due to changing protection would not be a tolerated excuse.
I think all school are trying to do is get all pupils to be decent adults.
As for punishment if its a 1st offence perhaps allow the sleepover but make it clear you want no more such comments from school.

No one felt the need to rebel on that front, because school clothing was a complete non issue.
You're deluded if you think what clothes the kids wear at a non uniform school is a "non issue" to the kids.
Part of the reason for uniform is to keep all pupils on a level playing field, both the ones who'd be able to afford all the latest fads and the ones who definitely wouldn't.

Your daughter has to realise rules apply to her too. Or she’s going to have trouble throughout her life. Oversized hoodie isn’t uniform so she needs to stop wearing it and allow more time to use the bathroom. Can’t see how the school are being unreasonable here

I think the punishments you have given her are spot on. She needs to behave appropriately at school or face the consequences.

Definitely worth investigating period pants for her as an extra layer of protection - she will have no need to be late from then on.

@GreyhoundG1rl

No one felt the need to rebel on that front, because school clothing was a complete non issue. You're deluded if you think what clothes the kids wear at a non uniform school is a "non issue" to the kids. Part of the reason for uniform is to keep all pupils on a level playing field, both the ones who'd be able to afford all the latest fads and the ones who definitely wouldn't.

You are right about this at a basic level however in England uniform has become less about levelling the playing field and more about control and exclusion. The very opposite of what it’s meant to do.

There is far too much attention to petty detail such as labels and supplier and ‘polishable black shoes’ not to mention that typically girls uniforms are often only available from registered suppliers whereas boys can get theirs from generic shops . One state secondary school near me has skirts costing £35.50 and jumpers at £21 . This is an average rural comprehensive in an area with considerable rural poverty . The only alternative is a school where the basic uniform alone would cost £100+ courtesy of the ‘unique piping’ on the white shirts

The apple does not fall far from the tree. She thinks the rules don't apply to her because you think they don't apply to you and your family.
I thought the sleepover had already been cancelled for her due to her other poor behaviour (at home)?

spent half my childhood abroad (no uniform) and the other half in the UK (strict uniform). In the foreign country everyone wore jeans and T shirts or shorts and T shirts, nothing crazy or inappropriate. No one felt the need to rebel on that front, because school clothing was a complete non issue.

I went to a secondary school in London that didn’t have a uniform at all (just a PE kit).
It’s crazy to assume girls (and also boys) don’t try to bend the rules still (trying to get away with bare stomachs, inappropriate heels, jewellery, hair colour/styles, offensive slogans on t-shirts still etc.)
Teens will always try to bend the rules in the name of expressing themselves. Always have. Always will.
The uniform is a red herring here.

Incorrect uniform is one thing but she has an absolute right to deal with her period. Not everyone can comfortably wait over two hours to change a pad...

In your position I'd deal with the two issues separately and would be asking the school whether they'd rather she was late to form or went to the toilet half way through her double lesson. These are the only two options which don't involve forcing her to double up on sanitary products (and likely still be uncomfortable) or bleeding through her clothes.

IMO it's essential that girls are taught that their comfort is important even if It's inconvenient to others.

a little bit of me (granted the bias DM) thinks give her a break

Where does it stop? When she’s late to work every day for no good reason? Are you going to ask her boss to give her a break?