Email from school about DD

[Thoughtsfortheday]

This isn’t really an AIBU and more of a pondering but seemed the best place to put it.

Had an email from the school yesterday (from tutor teacher) about concern for daughters behaviour, being late to tutor in the morning with no good reasons and also constant breeches of school uniform and being difficult (in front of tutor and head of year) when asked to resolve. (for context grey oversized hoodie with sleeves rolled up on top of blazer, tie not tightened, necklaces on top of shirt etc nothing revolutionary,)

Just to be clear I was absolutely mortified when I received it and was really cross with her last night, and she has had her phone and iPad taken off her and I have cancelled a sleepover she had planned for this weekend.

My slight pondering/AIBU (which I absolutely have not shared with my DD) is I feel it must be quite tricky to be a teenage girl atm, the world is pushing us not to conform anymore, encouraging women to wear and say what they want, to be able to express ourselves without judgement and identify as we please, great, I’m a big believer! School then however is the polar opposite, with rules, no room for fluidity, a one shape fits all approach.

The reason that she’s been late to class this week is due to a heavy flow period and wanting to change her pad at the last moment before going into a double hour class. She said she had explained this to her teacher but they have deemed this unacceptable.

I have spoke to her about good timekeeping and how she has plenty of time to do this and get along to class but a little bit of me (granted the bias DM) thinks give her a break.

Sorry for the rambling, I have a phone meeting with the school this morning and just trying to work out which approach to take.

One thing I'd say to my dd, which is something I have told my dc, if you are consistently late, then are late for a valid reason, people will tend to assume you've no good reason. if you're generally on time or early, then they'll assume you have a good reason.

I would agree with this. If she was generally better behaved, they would likely be more understanding with a genuine issue.

Don't be one of those parents and make excuses. She was late for class. There are lots of people who have heavy periods but still make it on time. It's difficult for lots of people in the current climate. What if everyone in her class came in late and spoke poorly? The school have clearly raised the issues because they feel they are big enough.

I'd tell her off, reiterate she's to wear the uniform correctly and turn up for lessons on time. I'd check that I was doing all I could to assist with any period issues causing problems at school.

And that's all I'd do. Remove her tech and cancelling sleepovers is over the top and could backfire on you - behaviour may worsen as she feels she has nothing to lose. So return those, tell her to pull her socks up and that would be that for me

Does she have heavy periods or is she not changing her pads regularly enough? If the double period is at the beginning and she’s gushing through pads between getting ready and going to school she needs medical treatment or at least a GP letter - and the school has to accept this as a legitimate reason.

If the double period is in the afternoon and she’s gushing through because she hasn’t changed her pad the whole day that’s a different story, and you need to explain period hygiene to her.

As school staff and a mum...

Please don’t think your daughter needs to receive the message that she needs to be treated with kid gloves and that it’s fine for her to flout the rules and be disrespectful when she’s requested to stick to them. She’s taking valuable time and attention away from other things that have to be done and other children. The hoodie thing screams “IDGAF about your rules”.

Of course teens need to be able to express themselves. They get plenty of opportunities in school to be asked what their opinions are and encouraged to share them, most schools recognise kids individual strengths and talents and encourage them - ignoring uniform isn’t the only way to express oneself. Allow her to express herself when out of school uniform. My teen who couldn’t stand “conformist things like uniform and assembly”, did Youth Theatre outside of school, wore very EMO/Arty clothes, we bought her loads of journals and art supplies, she learned how to make and upcycle her own clothes, arranged a school fashion show (stroke of genius by the school who encouraged the routine uniform flouters to participate and channel the uniform flouting).

Re the periods... she’s clearly anxious about them. School staff like me are too! Lots of us have been there. You need to help her find a way of managing them so she can show up on time. It’s a lesson lots of us women have to learn. I always said to mine, “if you know you are flooding OR if you genuinely think you will wee/poo yourself or vomit everywhere and the teacher is refusing to let you leave, you have my full permission to leave and run for the loo. We can deal with repercussions later. I’m not having you embarrassed.” However, your daughter is making a habit out of something that isn’t necessarily making a difference.
Period pants over the top of a pad and tampon might reassure her. But she needs to arrive at school and change in good time. And if it’s so bad she’s flooding through the largest pad or tampon in an hour, she needs a medical approach so make an appointment with your GP or Gynae Nurse.

Wearing uniform correctly isn't hard. If she isn't doing this, it's a conscious decision being taken on purpose, and the reason why needs addressing.

Perhaps if her periods are so heavy she should consider other protection - for example tampon, mooncup, period pants. When I discovered tampons they changed my life with regards to school. I used to be terrified of standing up after each lesson!

Well then if it's an outdoor camping type sleepover I'd let her go, she's had her devices taken away and a telling off, you've told her to apologise so hopefully it can be nipped in the bud.

When things have cooled down I'd talk to her in depth or as much as she'll allow you to, about what her thoughts and feelings are, where's all this stemming from. I wish my mum had sat down with me and asked me how I really was, rather than her approach of just telling me I was a typical teenager and needed to buck up. She did teach me a lesson on how not to be when my own daughter is a teen though. I doubt your daughter is doing any of this maliciously, if she's started acting out there is a reason / reasons, even if it's deep down and she doesn't really know how to put it into words. After the discipline and apologies see if you can get her to open up about things. Good luck with the school op and you sound like a very caring and level headed parent, I'm sure it's just a blip and everything will work out

@KarenMarlow3 I think you need to read my posts I did say that I was cross with DD, she has been punished and sent to school in correct school uniform and asked to apologise to all teachers involved.
I did read your post, and I accept that your daughter has been punished. However, presumably you are present when she's getting ready for school. Why have you allowed her to go, dressed inappropriately and wearing a necklace?

FWIW, I think that the obsession with uniforms, hairstyles etc in many schools is OTT and ridiculous. My dd knows that I think this. At the same time, my dd knows that I expect her to comply fully with the rules because that is what we have signed up to. Do I think that they could relax the rules a bit without any detriment to the kids' education? Yes, absolutely. Does that give us a free pass to ignore the rules? No, absolutely not.

@KarenMarlow3 out of interest why would you presume this?

Actually I’m not, I work.

I agree you shouldn’t be one of those parents who make endless excuses for their child’s shitty behaviour. She’s flouting the rules and she’s turning up late, she deserves a telling off and you should back the teachers here rather than her.

The uniform thing is pretty standard behaviour for teens, I know we all did this at school (making our ties shorter so the school just implemented clip on ones, making our skirts shorter, putting beads around our necks over the top of our school shirt etc) but she does need to understand that uniform is often a part of life. It obviously depends where you work but plenty of workplaces require a uniform and even most that don’t require smart attire. She just needs to tow the line with that, it’s not really worth the telling off.

I suspect she’s using the period as an excuse and she’s actually been late on a number of occasions but if she tells you that, she thinks you can’t tell her off. She’s manipulating you, also standard teenage behaviour but don’t fall for it. You need to be hard on teenagers, they desperately need boundaries. It’s like the toddler years again but less cute .

[quote KarenMarlow3]**@KarenMarlow3 I think you need to read my posts I did say that I was cross with DD, she has been punished and sent to school in correct school uniform and asked to apologise to all teachers involved.
I did read your post, and I accept that your daughter has been punished. However, presumably you are present when she's getting ready for school. Why have you allowed her to go, dressed inappropriately and wearing a necklace?[/quote]
I take it you don't have teenagers? There's a difference between how they leave the house and how they arrive at school.

Also, it's not unusual to wear a hoodie whilst travelling to school. It's the not taking it off once at school which is the issue.

I understand where you are coming from but school has to be strict on lateness and uniform etc because they are trying to wrangle 30 kids.

Sit down with her and have a good chat about what's going on. Listen to her. Teens misbehave because there's something else going on.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think that part of being at school is to prepare you for life, and sometimes you have to go along to get along. She's got plenty of free time to express herself, but if she's giving her teachers attitude, she needs to learn that that just doesn't always fly. There are ways to make your point without being rude, and rules apply to everyone.

The reason that she’s been late to class this week is due to a heavy flow period and wanting to change her pad at the last moment before going into a double hour class. She said she had explained this to her teacher but they have deemed this unacceptable.

Ex teacher and I was also a teen with horrendous periods so I am not unsympathetic. I'd much prefer a child turned up and said they needed to change or even send a note via another student.

Tutor time is usually when notices are given out and whole school information, and that often has to be delivered in a short period of time.

Mine all knew that I am not a big fan of uniform at secondary level , partly because I have direct experience if countries with no uniform culture and the dc have largely turned out ( shock horror) perfectly capable well educated adults despite not having spent seven sweaty years in grey polyester.

However I have also always expected my dc to conform at school, as someone else said upthread if you are usually well behaved then the odd transgression will be treated more leniently . It’s also a matter of respect, the teachers didn’t choose this policy either and they don’t need to waste their time dealing with teenagers trying to make a point.

Like the OP though I remain concerned about the effect that ever more stringent uniform rules are having on inclusion and the mental health and resilience of our young people . If you are not even trusted to make the personal decision that because you are hot you need to take off your jumper you are hardly likely to feel able to make bigger life decisions.

I take it you don't have teenagers?
I have had teenagers. Two of them, who are now successful women in their mid forties. I am also a former teacher whose time has occasionally been wasted dealing with lateness and poor attitudes from teens.
And to the OP who says she's already left the house when her daughter sets off for school, then surely you are home when she gets back, wearing inappropriate clothing and jewellery?
My point is that the OP seems to be making excuses for her daughter, instead of insisting that she conforms to school rules and expectations.

I suspect the lateness is being cracked down more because they can see she is testing boundaries in other ways too. If it were a genuine issue with a pad not lasting a double lesson (which is what, 1.5hours?) then you would also see her being careful to avoid sleepovers when her period is on, avoid going out with her friends to places where there's no loo etc. More likely yes, she needed to change her pad before the lesson, but she wasn't "leaving it to the last minute so she didn't leak", she just left it a bit late to go. (It's not the same for everyone, toilet passes are available.)

It all sounds like pretty normal boundary testing and my inclination would be to just let the consequences at school run their course. Back up the teachers verbally by all means, but save your real firepower for when she is challenging you directly. I don't think removing iPad for a uniform violation at school will encourage her to respect you.

I think you were right to be concerned about getting the email; I'd be amazed if any teacher of my acquaintance had the time or energy to contact you over one uniform infringement, or one incident of being late to lessons. I often found, on chatting to parents, that they had been getting the "edited highlights", so to speak. More likely a game of "grandmother's footsteps" where bit by bit, little pushes against the boundaries are tried on....but I don't know your daughter, I could be completely wrong.
She'll be dealing with periods for a few decades to come, and possibly needs to discuss the practicalities with you; if they are that heavy, she may need checking over for anaemia. I doubt if it has occurred to her that many of the teaching staff are dealing with the same practical problems.
If it's not an overall trend, the staff are more likely to take her reasons in their stride. In fact, I remember one case where a teacher contacted Mum because a normally sensible pupil kept asking for loo breaks; he asked if there was a problem because this was unlike her, and it turned out she had a urinary infection she'd been too embarrassed to mention.

@KarenMarlow3

I take it you don't have teenagers? I have had teenagers. Two of them, who are now successful women in their mid forties. I am also a former teacher whose time has occasionally been wasted dealing with lateness and poor attitudes from teens. And to the OP who says she's already left the house when her daughter sets off for school, then surely you are home when she gets back, wearing inappropriate clothing and jewellery? My point is that the OP seems to be making excuses for her daughter, instead of insisting that she conforms to school rules and expectations.

Come on how if you have had teens you're being a bit naive, teens can change their appearance/ uniform on the way and on the way back from school!

I'm glad you acknowledge and have acted on the unacceptable behaviour and hope you will or have conveyed this in the phone call.

As for not conforming, a separate issue completely.

You carnt make excuses for her, she has to follow the rules the same as every other teen in the school. In my son's school constant breeches of uniform rules would have earned several detentions and a possible isolation by now, funnily enough that works maybe suggest it to her school.

@CovidSmart

The big issue for me is periods. Yes I get that for a teacher, having many students arriving late is a pain. On the other side, many young teens have very heavy periods and with flooding periods, you dint always get the warning things need to be dealt with just right now. I remember only too well my period starting at work with a gush of blood going everywhere, not just my clothes but actually dripping into the floor. (And no there was no warning either...)

And because of that, I would have a massive issue with anyone thinking that ‘having to dash to the loo to change a pad’ isn’t a good enough reason.

Absolutely agree with this. My dd’s school is pretty good, but she is still terrified of something like this happening. There isn’t much time between lessons which doesn’t allow her to visit the loo without being late. I have told my dd to just go even if it makes her late and I will deal with school afterwards if there is an issue.

Re the uniform, there is no excuse. I’m a great believer in personal expression, but I could not turn up to work in the things I most like to wear. Uniforms and dressing appropriately are just part of life and she needs to get used to that.

I don’t agree with school uniforms, so I am biased, but I think your daughter isn’t necessarily wrong. Is it cold in the school? Does she have body issues like so many young girls? The necklace and tie aren’t ideal but neither is conformity for conformity’s sake. She’s probably just trying to express herself in a world that’s is increasingly suffocating for women and girls, and while I would try to curb it, i wouldn’t punish her for it too aggressively.

Re: being late, I would push back, sounds like the teacher is being a bit mysognistic. It’s absolutely acceptable to be late because you needed to change a pad on a heavy flow, and even if she didn’t have a last minute gush, who to risk sitting in their own blood for an hour on a heavy flow when you know it could leak at any minute- if they’re that heavy I would want as short a time as possible between one change to the next too. She may have been a bit abrasive when questioned about her reason, but would you not be? It’s not exactly a comfortable thing to talk about as a teenage girl.