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Original poster

To not be able to believe what I'm reading

616 replies

Butwasitherdriveway · 26/04/2021 20:21

Had a leaflet through my door......

I'm lost for words.

To not be able to believe what I'm reading
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Angrypregnantlady · 27/04/2021 09:56

And I hate the whole "people have a right to an opinion" to defend racists, homophobes, transphobes, and just plain vile people. If you have a right to be opposed to people living their life, then I certainly have a right to be opposed to you.

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 27/04/2021 10:00

Yes people want freedom from consequences, not freedom of speech.

Ithinkyoucan · 27/04/2021 10:01

@Angrypregnantlady

And I hate the whole "people have a right to an opinion" to defend racists, homophobes, transphobes, and just plain vile people. If you have a right to be opposed to people living their life, then I certainly have a right to be opposed to you.
The problem is what makes a 'phobe' is so widely interpreted. It should mean fear and hatred. But its used for ' anyone who says something I don't like.' Attempts are made to take hate speech legal action against women who believe women are defined by their sex and want a discussion about what that means. That is an opinion, on a current social issue. Its not hateful or phobic in anyway.
Ithinkyoucan · 27/04/2021 10:03

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

Yes people want freedom from consequences, not freedom of speech.
See its just chilling that people think there should be 'consequences' for having an opinion on a social issue. Rather than a civil debate which enables decisions to be made in society. Its bloody mafia-like in its threatening undercurrent.
52andblue · 27/04/2021 10:12

@Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting

Blessed be the fruit loops.
Well, I don't share their beliefs but I do think they have the right to hold them and test them at the ballot box (where they will be ridiculed) Fruit loops indeed!
bobbythejobby · 27/04/2021 10:21

I had a leaflet from them also and, out of curiosity, had a quick read through their 'manifesto' on their website. I didn't like any of it but two parts really stood out to me; those without dependent children would have to pay more tax and that they see this as fair as children will be paying for the current generation's retirement. Right, cause that's fair, almost like a punishment for those of us who don't have children for whatever reason. And that they would like fathers to be involved in decisions about abortion - I immediately thought well what happens if you have a controlling or abusive partner or you've been raped. It made me rather angry reading it but I can't (hope) see them getting many votes.

Nith · 27/04/2021 10:26

I think there is a grey area where allowing total freedom to spout hate-filled views spills over into fostering a culture where those views are deemed acceptable to other people who then feel equally free to proclaim and act on the same views. It's become a particular danger with social media and the internet generally, where people like Tommy Robinson claim to be validated by the fact that they have hundreds of thousands of mindless followers and keep whipping them up into more extreme expressions of their bigotism.

MagicSummer · 27/04/2021 10:27

I have to say I am sympathetic to less sex education in school - in my opinion it is up to parents to teach their children about sex, not some institution. Also many schoolchildren find it toe-curlingly embarrassing. I never had sex education at school and it didn't do me any harm.

poppycat10 · 27/04/2021 10:28

those without dependent children would have to pay more tax and that they see this as fair as children will be paying for the current generation's retirement. Right, cause that's fair, almost like a punishment for those of us who don't have children for whatever reason

I an fairly sure that you have to pay higher tax in Germany if you don't have dependent children.

StarCat2020 · 27/04/2021 10:32

Because a crime, however awful, is committed against you, it doesn't give you the right to murder. Crime does not justify crime
Rape is a crime (Sexual Offences Act) but abortion is not (Abortion Act 1967).

So your argument does not make sense.

StarCat2020 · 27/04/2021 10:32

Sorry E & W references above

DumplingsAndStew · 27/04/2021 10:34

@MagicSummer

I have to say I am sympathetic to less sex education in school - in my opinion it is up to parents to teach their children about sex, not some institution. Also many schoolchildren find it toe-curlingly embarrassing. I never had sex education at school and it didn't do me any harm.
So what happens to the children who don't/won't get taught about sex and relationship education at home?
Ithinkyoucan · 27/04/2021 10:37

@Nith

I think there is a grey area where allowing total freedom to spout hate-filled views spills over into fostering a culture where those views are deemed acceptable to other people who then feel equally free to proclaim and act on the same views. It's become a particular danger with social media and the internet generally, where people like Tommy Robinson claim to be validated by the fact that they have hundreds of thousands of mindless followers and keep whipping them up into more extreme expressions of their bigotism.
We have laws against incitement to violence. We don't, and shouldn't have, total free speech. But I do think we have to be really careful about going further than that.

And the difficulty with hate crime laws is that in popular opinion they can end up being more draconian than the actual laws are. So people start to think that you really can't say anything anyone might dislike and start to police each other and then themselves. There was a thread on here a while back where a Christian street preacher was saying non-christians go to hell (very standard christian belief, that is where the idea of 'being saved' comes from) and, allegedly, looked at a muslim woman. Posters were jumping on saying that is a hate crime and the OP should report him to the police (never mind the fact that nearly all muslims also believe non-muslims go to hell) . SO here hate speech laws were being invoked by the crowd to stop the expression of a core belief in the world's two most populous and wide spread beliefs. Which is arguably , quite a hateful thing to do!

StarCat2020 · 27/04/2021 10:55

Could I just add one thing?

Murder (in E & W) does not require pre-meditation.

The intent has to be that the accused has to either kill or seriously injure a living human being.

Quaagars · 27/04/2021 10:57

And I hate the whole "people have a right to an opinion" to defend racists, homophobes, transphobes, and just plain vile people. If you have a right to be opposed to people living their life, then I certainly have a right to be opposed to you.

Agree
What I find so scary about this leaflet that it's right that there's parties and viewpoints out there that oppose other peoples right to live isn't it?
There's some (not all) that says they agree with them on trans issues so apparently they "speak sense" there (or something)
It's not just trans people, though is it?
Where does it stop?
They're for families.
OK.
Is that all families?
As in families with gay parents as well?
Or do they mean your so called traditional families only?
If only traditional families, no equality for people who are gay and with a family then.
Then there's women having their right to abortion questioned.
So you're all fine and dandy if you're a white, straight male then
if you happen to be gay, lesbian trans or female not so much.
Can't believe people are OK with this, and defending it.
Actually, sadly I can.

Pumperthepumper · 27/04/2021 10:57

@MagicSummer

I have to say I am sympathetic to less sex education in school - in my opinion it is up to parents to teach their children about sex, not some institution. Also many schoolchildren find it toe-curlingly embarrassing. I never had sex education at school and it didn't do me any harm.
It would be a weird world where we invented laws to force people to teach their children things they didn’t want their children to learn.
Quaagars · 27/04/2021 10:57

Top bit was a quote, should have bolded it

Quaagars · 27/04/2021 10:58

I have to say I am sympathetic to less sex education in school - in my opinion it is up to parents to teach their children about sex, not some institution

What if parents can't, or won't teach their children though?
Should they remain uneducated?

Whalewithnosnail · 27/04/2021 10:59

Gosh I fell down the rabbit hole of reading their website the other week- fascinating. The video about the value of marriage sums up for me their approach to all the issues. In it he speaks about how marriage is important, but it has been devalued by women. Men naturally want to sleep around. If a woman allows a man to have sex with her without marriage she is responsible for devaluing marriage (he cannot be expected to have any control). If all women refused to devalue marriage and slut shamed those who do then society would be better.

So as usual- women are responsible for the behaviour of men who (in spite of deserving to earn more, deserving to be guaranteed contact with their child and who should apparently be free to discipline their wives with impunity) are completely incapable of overriding their need for sex until they are married.

The video on domestic abuse is equally interesting. Since the vast majority of domestic assaults take place in unmarried couples or in marriages that are breaking down (according to his statistics) the logical solution is to make divorce harder and keep people in those marriages. As though it is the paperwork which solves the problem. And their thing that the domestic abuse act interferes with couples who chose to live a more traditional lifestyle (presumably where the man is allowed to slap the woman around a bit and control her)

Madness. And mad how many female candidates they have (are they even allowed to work in Parliament if they are elected surely they should be at home caring for their children and abusive husbands??).

Ithinkyoucan · 27/04/2021 11:07

@Quaagars

And I hate the whole "people have a right to an opinion" to defend racists, homophobes, transphobes, and just plain vile people. If you have a right to be opposed to people living their life, then I certainly have a right to be opposed to you.

Agree
What I find so scary about this leaflet that it's right that there's parties and viewpoints out there that oppose other peoples right to live isn't it?
There's some (not all) that says they agree with them on trans issues so apparently they "speak sense" there (or something)
It's not just trans people, though is it?
Where does it stop?
They're for families.
OK.
Is that all families?
As in families with gay parents as well?
Or do they mean your so called traditional families only?
If only traditional families, no equality for people who are gay and with a family then.
Then there's women having their right to abortion questioned.
So you're all fine and dandy if you're a white, straight male then
if you happen to be gay, lesbian trans or female not so much.
Can't believe people are OK with this, and defending it.
Actually, sadly I can.

But all you are saying is ' I don't like what they say so they should not say it'.
But what if your opinions became the unpopular ones? Should you nto be allowed to say them? This is not hypothetical. There are women who have found that their belief that women are defined by their sex (until very recently, this was regarded as a fact and not an opinion) is now getting them defined at 'hateful' and THEY are getting cancelled. Not just their belief, but THEM.

If you want to believe people should be shut down for their views, then look into you deepest most sincerely held beliefs. Then say, I would be perfectly fine with a society where I was not allowed to say those views by law or by fear of social ostracisation. That would be a good society.

StarCat2020 · 27/04/2021 11:10

So what happens to the children who don't/won't get taught about sex and relationship education at home?
I was just about to post this same comment.

Even worse if kids have no education regarding sex, consent and anatomical words then how can it not be a risk to some children of CSA?

Quaagars · 27/04/2021 11:12

Where have I said people should be shut down for their views?
People are entitled to their opinion.
What doesn't sit right with me though is people imposing their beliefs on others to such an extent that they're impinging their right to live, to be themselves, whether that being gay, or trans, or wanting to take a woman's bodily autonomy away.
It goes beyond an opinion when you try to force others to be the "right type" of person.

CokeDrinker · 27/04/2021 11:14

@Quaagars It works both ways if you support taking a woman's right to exist in safe spaces away.

korawick12345 · 27/04/2021 11:14

@Quaagars

Where have I said people should be shut down for their views? People are entitled to their opinion. What doesn't sit right with me though is people imposing their beliefs on others to such an extent that they're impinging their right to live, to be themselves, whether that being gay, or trans, or wanting to take a woman's bodily autonomy away. It goes beyond an opinion when you try to force others to be the "right type" of person.
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. They are standing for election not mounting a coup!
Mulletsaremisunderstood · 27/04/2021 11:15

OP you stated I don't have a problem with free speech. I have a problem with hate speech.

The issue is, who gets to define what hate speech is. It's subjective, and more and more being used to shut down genuine debate.

For example, me stating that I don't believe humans can change sex, which is factually correct, is considered by some to be hate speech.

Me stating that I think single-sex spaces for women need to be maintained is consider by some to be hate speech.
According to many trans rights activists, this means I am a hateful bigot and should be prosecuted.

Being offended is not something that the law should be involved in... but in the last few years being offended is being linked to being the victim of hate speech. For example, the non crime hate incidents recorded by Police in England and Wales - many of these were for the 'crime' of misgendering someone on twitter.

Can't you see the problems here?