To not be able to believe what I'm reading

[Butwasitherdriveway]

Had a leaflet through my door......

I'm lost for words.

Sounds like Scotland's attempt at having their own version of the DUP

@DiddlyWiddly

Generations ago, people stayed and people "give up more easily" - IE, they stayed with partners they knew were gay, they stayed with partners they didn't love, they stayed wiht partners that battered them This is true, but equally, there are people who don’t really try and work through anything and break up not thinking through the impact on the children.

I'm not cheerleading divorce but I absolutely do feel that children who live in households with unhappy marriages are far more traumatised than those who make a decision and leave. We should not be teaching our children they have to stay
I think you are twisting my words a little there.

If you don't believe married people are better or that single people are nothing, wny would you support a party who wants to pay people who are married and stay at home?
Based off the leaflet I thought they sounded reasonable bar the hate speech and sex education.
Reading deeper they clearly want a complete removal of rights for women and there appears to be an suggestion of white supremacy and homophobia.
I do not support the party.

We will never agree on your abortion stance
Not many people do and I think it’s highly, highly unlikely countries that currently allow abortion will ban it so I really wouldn’t stress yourself.

I find the fact that anyone finds it apt to dictate to someone when they can and can't make a decision on whether they want to have a family appalling
Depends on your viewpoint of what constitutes a life.
I don’t consider a pregnancy past about 6 weeks to be a mere ball of cells, I consider it be a baby and I consider ending the life of that baby abhorrent.

So a rape victim should be forced to carry her rapist’s child to term? Or somebody who’s told her child will be severely disabled should have their choices removed?
Rape is a horrific thing, I am disgusted that society has done such a poor job in teaching men to respect women and I am disgusted rape is punished so leniently.
I have a great deal of sympathy for rape victims but I’m sorry but I also have sympathy for the child that never asked to be conceived.
Disability, I would argue that you should love the child you are given not that you wanted, doctors can and do get it wrong sometimes and it isn’t anyone’s right to take away the life of another.
I don’t agree with abortion.
I have heard all the arguments before, I am anti abortion.
I’m sorry that that offends people but that is my opinion 🤷‍♀️

It is not a 'baby'. At 6 weeks, it has no skeletal system, no brain stem, no heart (mechanical poles is not a heart - heart is not fully formed until 20 weeks) internal organs. It has no sentience until around 22 weeks. I find that those against abortion are so because they are misinformed on the development of pregnancy, and if they were informed of the facts, they would change their minds.

People who believe that abortion is always killing a baby won’t agree with abortion under any circumstances, even if they have the greatest of sympathy for terrible individual situations. That view has a totally coherent internal logic.

Diddly and other anti-abortionists came here to discuss the generalised sentiments of the leaflet that OP posted, and when they did so they were confronted with some very sad individual stories. That can only have the effect of shutting down debate or discussion. It certainly doesn’t change hearts or minds, if that is the aim.

This wasn’t a thread about people’s individual situations of having a termination and how tragic and traumatic those situations were. For an anti abortionist to come on to those threads and state their views would be intrusive and abhorrent. But views were openly invited on a general topic, and when the wrong ones were expressed, very emotional, dare I say manipulative language was used to shut it down. In fact from the outside it’s looks like it’s turned into a rather unpleasant dogpile, and I don’t think people should be congratulating themselves on how well they’ve educated the anti abortionists......

Can we stop the derailing about weeks? We have a poster on here who has bravely and beautifully talked about her experiences of pregnancy after being raped.

I don't want to have to get the thread pulled. Let's stick purely to the leaflet itself.

@Kentuki

People who believe that abortion is always killing a baby won’t agree with abortion under any circumstances, even if they have the greatest of sympathy for terrible individual situations. That view has a totally coherent internal logic.

Diddly and other anti-abortionists came here to discuss the generalised sentiments of the leaflet that OP posted, and when they did so they were confronted with some very sad individual stories. That can only have the effect of shutting down debate or discussion. It certainly doesn’t change hearts or minds, if that is the aim.

This wasn’t a thread about people’s individual situations of having a termination and how tragic and traumatic those situations were. For an anti abortionist to come on to those threads and state their views would be intrusive and abhorrent. But views were openly invited on a general topic, and when the wrong ones were expressed, very emotional, dare I say manipulative language was used to shut it down. In fact from the outside it’s looks like it’s turned into a rather unpleasant dogpile, and I don’t think people should be congratulating themselves on how well they’ve educated the anti abortionists......

You are so out of line.

Firstly, she did come on and state her views, even following the post from lynn, so that was intrusive and abhorrent.

If you read through the thread there are several attempts from me to re route the discussion due to the sensitive topic.

I think to call the response to her comments "manipulative" and "emotional" when we have a real life rape survivor on this thread is absolutely vile, I'm sorry. Surely if I start a thread I have a responsibility to try and protect posters and keep it on track?

PS - there are no such thing as "wrong" views. Lynn and I went to war on a different topic a few days ago, But I can recognise when someone needs to wrap it (and if you read very carefully, youl see I encouraged said PP to continue the discussion, but perhaps just drop that particular bone).

I'm interested to know how you think its been a dogpile. I'm guessing you haven't been on MN long.

Also, finally, if you read Lynn's posts, she is well aware she HASN'T educated anyone. She just wanted to be respectful of their views.

I am appalled by your post.

Goodness, I'm manipulative and a murderer now? @Kentuki. I have repeatedly stated I don't want posts with opinions I disagree with to be deleted and that I don't want the poster to feel they should stop posting AND that I would fight for their right to say the things I disagree with.

Not sure what more I could do to engage in a meaningful and respectful way. I didn't post any more about that topic than the person I was responding to, I have a right to reply as do they.

After your post I'll bow out 'congratulate' myself aka feel shitty my patience and respect has been wasted and wonder why I bother in private.

So it's you who has shut someone down.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Goodness, I'm manipulative and a murderer now? *@Kentuki*. I have repeatedly stated I don't want posts with opinions I disagree with to be deleted and that I don't want the poster to feel they should stop posting AND that I would fight for their right to say the things I disagree with.

Not sure what more I could do to engage in a meaningful and respectful way. I didn't post any more about that topic than the person I was responding to, I have a right to reply as do they.

After your post I'll bow out 'congratulate' myself aka feel shitty my patience and respect has been wasted and wonder why I bother in private.

So it's you who has shut someone down.

Lynn

@DiddlyWiddly

I am absolutely lost for words at the rest of your post Ah well. Abortion isn’t going to be banned anyway so I never really understand quite why people get so angry at us pro lifers.

So you think women should bring up children as a result of rape and seriously disabled children because you've decided they should
Wow
I think the child conceived through rape is a victim too and I don’t think it is morally right to end the lives of others.

The law is highly unlikely to change so no need to get stressy.
☕️

Firstly, one thing clear; you are NOT 'pro life'. If anything, you are pro Incubatorial Slavery, you are pro death of the mother (via suicide, back alley abortion etc). Pro-choicers are indeed and in fact, the only pro-lifers. Because they are pro the actual, existing life of the born human woman.

Asking why we get angry? Because the rhetoric is unhuman and anti-woman. It is evil. It promotes women as having less human rights than a corpse. It promotes women as being mere incubators and broodmares to RISK OUR HEALTH AND LIVES. It is anti-life, therefore. The rhetoric anti-choicers/pro-incubatorial slavers use is subjugating, dangerous and whips up abuse against women.

It is not about 'ending the lives of others', as an embryo/fetus is not a life. It is about ensuring the life of the WOMAN. That is the only life in question. There is no other actual life in question. Potential is not actual.

@kiwiPlumapple

Why do people always assume those who disagree with abortion are religious

Because the overwhelming majority are. Regardless, those who disagree with abortion are ill-informed.

So here's the thing.

@youvegottenminuteslynn and I went at it and then some on a topic the other day. We couldn't be any different in our views.

However, I cannot stand by and allow PP to speak to he the way they have given that she is a direct survivor.

If that gets my thread pulled so be it.

Folk need to remember there is a human being behind the screen. Your views are all very right and proper, but she is a person.

For those worried about the pile on on the PP with her views (the fictitious pile on, we were all pretty respectful to her) I think they should be far more concerned about Lynn who has had to read this absolute mince.

Lynn has now left the thread due to the comments towards her, and although we will speak In PM I am truly sorry that my thread has done that to her.

I mean this , seriously. Please remember there is a human behind the screen.

@Kentuki

People who believe that abortion is always killing a baby won’t agree with abortion under any circumstances, even if they have the greatest of sympathy for terrible individual situations. That view has a totally coherent internal logic.

Diddly and other anti-abortionists came here to discuss the generalised sentiments of the leaflet that OP posted, and when they did so they were confronted with some very sad individual stories. That can only have the effect of shutting down debate or discussion. It certainly doesn’t change hearts or minds, if that is the aim.

This wasn’t a thread about people’s individual situations of having a termination and how tragic and traumatic those situations were. For an anti abortionist to come on to those threads and state their views would be intrusive and abhorrent. But views were openly invited on a general topic, and when the wrong ones were expressed, very emotional, dare I say manipulative language was used to shut it down. In fact from the outside it’s looks like it’s turned into a rather unpleasant dogpile, and I don’t think people should be congratulating themselves on how well they’ve educated the anti abortionists......

I totally agree with you- exactly what I thought when I read it. Manipulative shut down is about right.

@DiddlyWiddly

Because your views are appalling In your opinion they are yes. I find your view that deciding to end the life of another is right and acceptable absolutely appalling too. It’s all difference of opinion which we should be allowed to express freely.

In the eyes of most compassionate and moral people I would suggest.

You cannot 'end the life of' something that does not exist. That is an impossibility.

Only ONE life exists in that scenario, and that is of the actual human being - the woman. Not the blastocyst/embryo/fetus/parasite.

@Kentuki

People who believe that abortion is always killing a baby won’t agree with abortion under any circumstances, even if they have the greatest of sympathy for terrible individual situations. That view has a totally coherent internal logic.

Diddly and other anti-abortionists came here to discuss the generalised sentiments of the leaflet that OP posted, and when they did so they were confronted with some very sad individual stories. That can only have the effect of shutting down debate or discussion. It certainly doesn’t change hearts or minds, if that is the aim.

This wasn’t a thread about people’s individual situations of having a termination and how tragic and traumatic those situations were. For an anti abortionist to come on to those threads and state their views would be intrusive and abhorrent. But views were openly invited on a general topic, and when the wrong ones were expressed, very emotional, dare I say manipulative language was used to shut it down. In fact from the outside it’s looks like it’s turned into a rather unpleasant dogpile, and I don’t think people should be congratulating themselves on how well they’ve educated the anti abortionists......

I agree with you @Kentuki. Look I'm Irish and we spent decades tearing each other apart on this issue and it does no good. I'm pro-choice but I totally respect people's personal views on this most divisive of issues. I can absolutely see the internal logic of the anti-abortion argument and they have a right to express that view so long as it is done using legal means and without deliberately setting out to hurt or abuse those they disagree with. So obviously I dont agree with picketing abortion clinics or abusing people using them but they do have a right to set up or be a part of a political party holding those views and advocating for a change to the law. And in terms of their own internal logic - where they see themselves as fighting to save lives - then the feelings of women who have had abortions will be of secondary importance. I don't sympathise but I can understand it

@OnTheBrink1 Lynn has now left the thread due to her distress. She is far from manipulative, just a victim who reacted badly to the comment made. Can we just stop?

If this continues I will ask MN to pull the thread.

I'm genuinely sorry if my posts felt manipulative. It couldn't be further from my intent but if the impact was that anyone felt manipulated I'm sorry.

I'm bowing out now.

[quote Butwasitherdriveway]@OnTheBrink1 Lynn has now left the thread due to her distress. She is far from manipulative, just a victim who reacted badly to the comment made. Can we just stop?

If this continues I will ask MN to pull the thread.[/quote]
Want talking about Lynne. Was talking about you

Wasn’t

Am I right in thinking that their leader taught/teaches in the private sector in Edinburgh? He'll have a well rounded experience of the Scottish Education system on which to base his ridiculous policies then.

My feeling about men who form and join these types of parties are that they have to channel their energies into hating others (women, minorities etc) in a desperate attempt to suppress their own deep self loathing.

I hope they lose their deposit and that every constituency they stand in is won resoundingly by a female candidate

Me? @OnTheBrink1 ? what have i shared thats manipulative?

All I have done is back Lynn. as is my responsibility on a thread I start.

@Indiana2021

Am I right in thinking that their leader taught/teaches in the private sector in Edinburgh? He'll have a well rounded experience of the Scottish Education system on which to base his ridiculous policies then.

My feeling about men who form and join these types of parties are that they have to channel their energies into hating others (women, minorities etc) in a desperate attempt to suppress their own deep self loathing.

I hope they lose their deposit and that every constituency they stand in is won resoundingly by a female candidate

He failed teaching apparently. cant think why.

@Crystal90567

I am also anti abortion and anti bullying too.

Because a crime, however awful, is committed against you, it doesn't give you the right to murder. Crime does not justify crime.

Crystal, murder is not what you think it is. Any woman has the right to remove a parasite from her, or foreign entity or tumour that is there without her consent. What right do you have to suggest a woman should be subjected to incubatorial slavery, or even death by suicide or backalley abortion, simply because you are ill-informed? Please learn what 'murder' is before you throw the term about flippantly.

I'm still waiting for a party in Scotland which targets constitutional problems with the structure of the Scottish Executive (unicameral, vague and seemingly unenforceable protections against abuse, lack of transparency of decision-making, etc) and supports personal freedoms (way out of lockdown planned, Hate Crime bill concerns addressed).

I'm still waiting.

@OnTheBrink1 I suggest that using incorrect terms such as 'baby' for an embryo or fetus is manipulative. I find that it is the anti-choicers who use the emotionally manipulative rhetoric. People speaking on here of their personal experiences is not 'manipulative', it is reminding us all that there are real human beings here.

[quote CokeDrinker]@OnTheBrink1 I suggest that using incorrect terms such as 'baby' for an embryo or fetus is manipulative. I find that it is the anti-choicers who use the emotionally manipulative rhetoric. People speaking on here of their personal experiences is not 'manipulative', it is reminding us all that there are real human beings here.[/quote]

@Kentuki

People who believe that abortion is always killing a baby won’t agree with abortion under any circumstances, even if they have the greatest of sympathy for terrible individual situations. That view has a totally coherent internal logic.

Diddly and other anti-abortionists came here to discuss the generalised sentiments of the leaflet that OP posted, and when they did so they were confronted with some very sad individual stories. That can only have the effect of shutting down debate or discussion. It certainly doesn’t change hearts or minds, if that is the aim.

This wasn’t a thread about people’s individual situations of having a termination and how tragic and traumatic those situations were. For an anti abortionist to come on to those threads and state their views would be intrusive and abhorrent. But views were openly invited on a general topic, and when the wrong ones were expressed, very emotional, dare I say manipulative language was used to shut it down. In fact from the outside it’s looks like it’s turned into a rather unpleasant dogpile, and I don’t think people should be congratulating themselves on how well they’ve educated the anti abortionists......

100% this.

@Butwasitherdriveway is acting like a horrendous bully because she doesn't like the views some people are expressing. Just because one poster CHOOSES to share their anecdotal experiences it doesn't mean all debate and viewpoints should be shut down in case they are offended @DiddlyWiddly has expressed a view in a calm and rationale manner and been attacked for it. The OP should realise that she is showing a similar level of intolerance to those she professes to dislike so much.