To think a jail sentence for this tragic case of neglect achieves nothing?

[QuadBod]

The mum whose baby drowned in the bath while she was distracted on her phone: BBC News - Northamptonshire mum jailed for killing baby son left alone in bath
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-56860846

Completely tragic, but what does the jail sentence achieve? Publicity perhaps, and maybe that will help to save other lives, but otherwise I don't get it.

You think she's fit to have more kids? 🤔

Well if she'd left her child alone in an apartment had gone to a tapas bar for the evening, she'd have been granted an audience with the pope. But she's poor and black, so hey ho.

I like many others had near misses while looking after toddlers and working from home last year. It was a fundamentally unsafe set-up. I’m shocked the judge said no lessons learnt from the hot-tub case because we discussed the case at work in a ‘could the employer be held liable’ sort of way. I’m sure safety must have been a factor in the decision-making around keeping nurseries open in the last lockdown.

Her life is ruined by the death of her baby. I think that is more than enough punishment for anyone, whatever their mental state. I can’t imagine what she is going through.

@3Britnee

You think she's fit to have more kids? 🤔

Jesus.

Happymum12345

Her life is ruined by the death of her baby. I think that is more than enough punishment for anyone, whatever their mental state. I can’t imagine what she is going through.“

She directly caused the death of her baby.

I have crossed her path before. I can’t say she was a delightful person.
The judge said she refuses to believe it was her fault and accepts no responsibility, and I can imagine that attitude coming from her.

@Huka

I have crossed her path before. I can’t say she was a delightful person. The judge said she refuses to believe it was her fault and accepts no responsibility, and I can imagine that attitude coming from her.

OK, anonymous stranger on the internet. You've convinced me.

What a tragic case. However, there’s the legal standard for gross negligence manslaughter. By leaving a tiny baby in the bath alone to use her phone, the mother voluntarily and consciously disregarded a safe standard of care which she should have known could result in her baby’s death. I don’t think she could have or should have avoided conviction on these facts.

Sentencing guidelines then determine that she had high culpability for the crime because it was particularly serious - she showed a blatant disregard for a very high risk of death resulting from her negligent behaviour.

Imposing a non-custodial sentence would contravene the sentencing guidelines.

For those who don’t agree she should be going to jail, how would you otherwise deal with offences like hers? I’m genuinely interested as I’m struggling to come up with an alternative suitable idea.

Heart breaking. For the little boy who lost his life at such a young age and for his mum who I imagine loved him dearly and will never forgive herself.

You’re right, a jail sentence seems unnecessary. But she probably doesn’t care much about anything now anyway, I know I wouldn’t.

@waterproofed

What a tragic case. However, there’s the legal standard for gross negligence manslaughter. By leaving a tiny baby in the bath alone to use her phone, the mother voluntarily and consciously disregarded a safe standard of care which she should have known could result in her baby’s death. I don’t think she could have or should have avoided conviction on these facts.

Sentencing guidelines then determine that she had high culpability for the crime because it was particularly serious - she showed a blatant disregard for a very high risk of death resulting from her negligent behaviour.

Imposing a non-custodial sentence would contravene the sentencing guidelines.

For those who don’t agree she should be going to jail, how would you otherwise deal with offences like hers? I’m genuinely interested as I’m struggling to come up with an alternative suitable idea.

Perhaps, like Amy Denning, she could dedicate herself for a short while to educating others about the (surprising) dangers of leaving a baby unattended in bathwater?

I don't think this poor woman should have been given a jail sentence. Obviously the judge wanted to make an example of her but, in reality, she will punish herself and suffer enough for the rest of her life. It's horrible, doesn't bear thinking about. Jailing her will not bring her poor little child back.

@multivac point about institutional racism well made and taken.

However, from the point of view of sentencing guidelines Denning’s remorse would have been a mitigating factor lessening her culpability.

On the other hand, you could also argue that the mother’s mental health issues should be seen as mitigating too, in relation to this sentence. The lack of sympathy for the mother from the court is obvious and I don’t doubt it’s to do with her skin colour and poor mental health.

Racial inequality aside (I know, my white privileged is showing), how would you deal with parents convinced of gross negligence manslaughter of their children? What would be an appropriate consequence?

well theres a huge part you missed out your narrative.it wasnt necessarily the tragic,horrific accident that got her jailed.As much as the consistent lie about use of phone.ttherefore not accepting responsibility.had she been honest it might have been jail would be avoided.?

Going by the judge's and defence barrister's comments, there are other things going on in that case which the public are not privy to, and nor should they necessarily be. This is often the case with criminal proceedings and while I don't believe judges are infallible, neither do the public have the full facts

Exactly this

[quote waterproofed]@multivac point about institutional racism well made and taken.

However, from the point of view of sentencing guidelines Denning’s remorse would have been a mitigating factor lessening her culpability.

On the other hand, you could also argue that the mother’s mental health issues should be seen as mitigating too, in relation to this sentence. The lack of sympathy for the mother from the court is obvious and I don’t doubt it’s to do with her skin colour and poor mental health.

Racial inequality aside (I know, my white privileged is showing), how would you deal with parents convinced of gross negligence manslaughter of their children? What would be an appropriate consequence?[/quote]
More support before it happens, obviously. But after the fact... some sort of education/counselling intervention. Perhaps community service. I see no benefit to a custodial sentence at all; the convicted person is not a risk to the public, nor is there likely to be a deterrent effect.

Today 23:35 Maggiesfarm

I don't think this poor woman should have been given a jail sentence. Obviously the judge wanted to make an example of her but, in reality, she will punish herself and suffer enough for the rest of her life. It's horrible, doesn't bear thinking about. Jailing her will not bring her poor little child back.“

Poor woman? She prioritised posting over her child’s safety.

This thread is unbelievable.

@TedImgoingmad

Well if she'd left her child alone in an apartment had gone to a tapas bar for the evening, she'd have been granted an audience with the pope. But she's poor and black, so hey ho.

Do you think our prisons have no white people in them?

PS I mean, that's on top of the obvious consequence - living with the death of her baby for the rest of her life.

Do you think our prisons have no white people in them?

No; from where did you get that inference?

Well, she's a black woman so the institutionally racist justice system will not have treated her kindly. A white man doing the exact same thing would be very unlikely to go to prison

I'm biracial myself and things like this wind me up. Sometimes black/non who're do things that are not ok and are punished. There is a time for social justice but not every case ffs. Sometimes people deserve jail time and it's not because of their ethnicity

@TedImgoingmad

Do you think our prisons have no white people in them?

No; from where did you get that inference?

You implied she was punished because she was black, and not because she caused the death of her child.

it wasn’t like she didn’t care or tried to cover up her son’s drowning- she did all the right things to try to save him

So anyone can deliberately crush, drop or drown a child, accidental or not, and they're given a free pass for calling 999? Do you see the issue here?

@spittycup Can you have a deliberate accident?

I think there should be more jail time for such cases, not less.

A baby drowning in a bath whilst the mother is in another room playing with her phone is not an accident.

It is manslaughter.

It is known that babies can drown in very shallow water.
It is known that babies are not strong enough to hold themselves up, roll over etc etc.
It is known that bath seats will not securely hold an unattended baby in the bath and prevent drowning.

Sending a whatsapp, answering a phone, making a call - none of those things are vital, and if you take the phone into the room with you, can be done without leaving the child.

If her baby had drowned because she had turned to grab a towel, slipped and banged her head and knocked herself out for 4 minutes, THAT would be an accident.

She took known, obvious risks, for no good reason and killed someone as a result.

If she gets a 'there there, you'll live with it for the rest of your life and that's punishment enough' what are the chances she has another baby and takes the same risks?

You don't think folk are stupid enough to do that - I can tell you they are. They tell themselves its not their fault, it was an accident, they didn't mean any harm... and go and do it again.