Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Pronouns

129 replies

idontlikealdi · 23/04/2021 11:38

I know this has been done to death on the feminism boards, but it's always been something I've read about and not encountered.

I the last few weeks I have had a slew of people on LinkedIn / clients / colleagues add pronouns to their sign off.

I work in a global capacity, no one not in the UK is doing this. I don't care what you identify as as long as you complete the job. Of the very few people who don't identify as they present, just tell me once and we're sorted.

I'm getting RAGE. It's fucking ridiculous. I'm thinking of adding giraffe / goat / duck to mine.

YABU - everyone should do it
YANBU - it's virtue signalling wokeness, at best.

OP posts:
WagnersFourthSymphony · 27/05/2021 20:52

Thought you might like this, from this week's Private Eye:

Pronouns
PamDenick · 27/05/2021 20:57

Brilliant. Love Private Eye. They just get it right…

PamDenick · 27/05/2021 20:57

(apart from when they are being sued…)

Throckmorton · 27/05/2021 21:17

Calling attention to being female disadvantages women in the workplace. No way would I ever put pronouns in my email - it's encouraging discrimination against women

Babbly · 27/05/2021 21:32

Aside from the fact that everyone on mumsnet has an issue with being transgender, it's useful for people who have gender neutral names (like Charlie or Riley or Jac etc), it's useful for people with foreign names where people in the country they're in won't be able to tell their gender, it's useful for people who have gender-neutral titles (like Dr).
If you have a meeting with Dr Jones, sometimes it's nice to be able to determine if you're meeting a man or a woman - just to have some idea who to look for. If you're called Riley Smith, it's super annoying to constantly be called Mr Smith if you're female etc. Would you know whether Tinghuei is male or female? Not everything has to be about your opinions. It doesn't negatively impact you in any possible way and it benefits a lot of people in a lot of ways.
Also, a lot of people do this in a lot of countries so clearly you need to widen your circle.
Could you explain why you think it's a bad thing? You haven't actually provided any reason.

Anothermother3 · 27/05/2021 21:32

I find they and them really bugs me from a grammatical perspective. I just can’t manage it and I’m not sure if it’s because I’m a bit obsessive or if other people also feel like this.

Throckmorton · 27/05/2021 21:40

@Babbly

Aside from the fact that everyone on mumsnet has an issue with being transgender, it's useful for people who have gender neutral names (like Charlie or Riley or Jac etc), it's useful for people with foreign names where people in the country they're in won't be able to tell their gender, it's useful for people who have gender-neutral titles (like Dr). If you have a meeting with Dr Jones, sometimes it's nice to be able to determine if you're meeting a man or a woman - just to have some idea who to look for. If you're called Riley Smith, it's super annoying to constantly be called Mr Smith if you're female etc. Would you know whether Tinghuei is male or female? Not everything has to be about your opinions. It doesn't negatively impact you in any possible way and it benefits a lot of people in a lot of ways. Also, a lot of people do this in a lot of countries so clearly you need to widen your circle. Could you explain why you think it's a bad thing? You haven't actually provided any reason.
Please see my earlier post about why it's bad. It disadvantages women and transwomen in the workplace. It also creates a culture that pushes people to identify their gender when they might not want to or be ready to, thus disadvantages trans people who are only part way through the process of coming out.

There is no earthly reason why anyone working with me needs to know my sex, in the same way they don't need to know about any disabilities I might have, or religions I might believe in. I don't care what I'm called at work so long as it's respectful, or what sex people assume I am. I'm not going to change how I interact with a colleague depending on what sex they are, so I have no need to know their sex either.

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/05/2021 21:44

I don't have to declare any other protected characteristics on my email signature.

PP who thinks it's useful when meeting someone. You could say the same for race or nationality. But you wouldn't, would you, because it would clearly be dodgy and likely to cause discrimination. Which we KNOW it does with sex as well, it's been studied.

Lizzie523 · 27/05/2021 21:46

I won't be doing it.

I noticed a recruiter who found me on LinkedIn had them. I ignored his message because he clearly lacks the ability to think for himself. A week later, he had removed them.

MapGirlExtraordinaire · 27/05/2021 21:47

I am a woman with a man's name and a PhD so I'm recorded as Dr in places including work.
I amused and enjoy the frequent icebreaker of laughing at my hippy parents giving me a man's name. I am never upset or offended.

I am offended at the idea I have to lose this advantage I luckily get in being assumed to be male to validate someone else's agenda.

Noone can compel me to do it and I won't.

Can you imagine being asked to put your sexuality in your email? Or your disabilities? Or religion? They have about as much relevance to my ability to do my job as my sex.

Oh and obv adding pronouns is not about stating your sex, but your gender, because it is how you wish to be referred to and not how your chromosomes align

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 27/05/2021 21:51

I really can’t see how this is good for transwomen any more than any other women. As you say, it calls attention to gender and disadvantages women / invites discrimination.

Not to mention those people who aren’t ready to “come out” as or announce their gender.

I don’t mind people doing it, as long as it’s not mandatory.

That’s said, whilst I’ve seen “she/her/hers” multiple times, I’ve yet to see “he/him/his” on a sign off.

JudgeJ · 27/05/2021 21:51

@PamDenick

(apart from when they are being sued…)
Yet the passage of time often shows that they were correct!
stickygotstuck · 27/05/2021 21:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Babbly · 27/05/2021 21:54

@Throckmorton Your argument appears to be entirely based on people being FORCED to do this - which no one is. People choosing to do this have a right to and aren't harming anyone. Your argument is entirely based on an assumption it harms the person doing it which a) you have no evidence for and b) is their choice. Do you feel the same way about people who sign off with "Miss/Mrs/Ms/Mr"? Does that make you feel "rage" like OP?
This is yet another case of "I don't want to do X so I'm angry that other people have chosen to do X even though it doesn't impact me in any way".

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/05/2021 21:56

Your argument is entirely based on an assumption it harms the person doing it which a) you have no evidence for

Crack a book. It's been well documented that it affects not only the treatment women get but also their performance.

Throckmorton · 27/05/2021 22:01

[quote Babbly]@Throckmorton Your argument appears to be entirely based on people being FORCED to do this - which no one is. People choosing to do this have a right to and aren't harming anyone. Your argument is entirely based on an assumption it harms the person doing it which a) you have no evidence for and b) is their choice. Do you feel the same way about people who sign off with "Miss/Mrs/Ms/Mr"? Does that make you feel "rage" like OP?
This is yet another case of "I don't want to do X so I'm angry that other people have chosen to do X even though it doesn't impact me in any way".[/quote]
Many workplaces do apply a degree of force in this - heavily suggesting it's the "right" thing to do.

The evidence is mentioned above and easy to find all over the internet should you wish to look.

Out of interest - WHY do you want to know the sex of the people you interact with at work? That seems rather weird and creepy to me.

partyatthepalace · 27/05/2021 22:01

@WagnersFourthSymphony

Thought you might like this, from this week's Private Eye:
Grin
MrsKoala · 27/05/2021 22:06

@Babbly

Aside from the fact that everyone on mumsnet has an issue with being transgender, it's useful for people who have gender neutral names (like Charlie or Riley or Jac etc), it's useful for people with foreign names where people in the country they're in won't be able to tell their gender, it's useful for people who have gender-neutral titles (like Dr). If you have a meeting with Dr Jones, sometimes it's nice to be able to determine if you're meeting a man or a woman - just to have some idea who to look for. If you're called Riley Smith, it's super annoying to constantly be called Mr Smith if you're female etc. Would you know whether Tinghuei is male or female? Not everything has to be about your opinions. It doesn't negatively impact you in any possible way and it benefits a lot of people in a lot of ways. Also, a lot of people do this in a lot of countries so clearly you need to widen your circle. Could you explain why you think it's a bad thing? You haven't actually provided any reason.
I used to do some recruitment work with Middle Eastern countries and Brunei. My name (the abbreviation I use) altho more often used by women in this country is often over there used a mans name. I arranged meetings over email and then always turned up to visibly annoyed people when they realised I was/am a woman. Some even directly told me had they known they would have declined the meeting. I'm really glad I didn't have to put pronouns on my email signature as I'd have probably not have got most of the meetings and just have no idea why.
whatnow41 · 27/05/2021 22:08

I've found out this week that my workplace has a target to have pronouns in 100% of email signatures by the end of the year. Only 100% compliance and capitulation is acceptable.

OneEpisode · 27/05/2021 22:12

Whatnow, if you are female use he/him if the majority of top management do. It’s aspirational. You

OneEpisode · 27/05/2021 22:12

“See”

Lizzie523 · 27/05/2021 22:16

@whatnow41

I've found out this week that my workplace has a target to have pronouns in 100% of email signatures by the end of the year. Only 100% compliance and capitulation is acceptable.
that is shocking. Totally oppressive.
Strugglingtodomybest · 27/05/2021 22:24

it's useful for people who have gender-neutral titles (like Dr).

In my case, I deliberately use Dr and then my first initial so that people don't know which sex I am.

StealthPolarBear · 27/05/2021 22:32

"If you have a meeting with Dr Jones, sometimes it's nice to be able to determine if you're meeting a man or a woman - just to have some idea who to look for."
Do you expect to know anything else about them from their email signature?
Stealth
Fat /Ginger