Pronouns

[idontlikealdi]

I know this has been done to death on the feminism boards, but it's always been something I've read about and not encountered.

I the last few weeks I have had a slew of people on LinkedIn / clients / colleagues add pronouns to their sign off.

I work in a global capacity, no one not in the UK is doing this. I don't care what you identify as as long as you complete the job. Of the very few people who don't identify as they present, just tell me once and we're sorted.

I'm getting RAGE. It's fucking ridiculous. I'm thinking of adding giraffe / goat / duck to mine.

YABU - everyone should do it
YANBU - it's virtue signalling wokeness, at best.

It’s a political statement. Requiring me to state “my” pronouns forces me to make a political statement I don’t believe in. Even making it optional makes my omission a political statement.

How can you tell someone's sex by looking at them?

😂🤣😂🤣

Come on! Out of interest, how do you think animals manage to mate? They don’t tend to declare their pronouns, do they just go around humping everything?!! Use your brain.

Oh wow! Such ignorance so early in the morning

@Donitta

I love being able to pick my own pronouns. It allows me to present as male via email and on letters etc, and people treat me with significantly more respect. As pp said, I also use a neutral title to conceal my sex. Far from being offended - I purposely want people to think I’m a man.

I can honestly say, as a female, that I have never once been talked down to or patronised as a result of being female! I cannot imagine having to hide my identity in emails etc in order to be treated better. If someone treats you poorly, pull them up on it! Raise your standards! I can understand people stating their pronouns for inclusivity to transgender people etc but in order to be treated better? No! You're not doing anything for women's rights or confidence here.

chickenyhead gender isn't a protected characteristic. You can look them up online, there are 9 and none of them are gender.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic, and that has a legal definition. But gender itself is not protected.

Sex in the other hand is protected.

So you aren't allowed to discriminate against anyone because of their sex (I like men more than women, women can be bitchy, so I won't hire more women into my team)

You aren't allowed to discriminate against anyone who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment (Tom used to be Tina and that's weird and I don't like it so I'm not hiring them)

However gender is fine to discriminate against?! I'm not sure on the details there, but I guess the relevant thing is gender is hard to define and the people who need protecting are already protected by the two above, so gender is not relevant to this.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Your argument is entirely based on an assumption it harms the person doing it which a) you have no evidence for

Crack a book. It's been well documented that it affects not only the treatment women get but also their performance.

crack a book

How have I not heard this before? I love it!!
That's really tickled me this morning, thank you.

Indeed gender reassignment is the protected characteristic, but you don't need to be actively transitioning for the protection to apply do you?

So not using appropriate pronouns if asked to is a slippery slope surely?

Ms R Taylor v Jaguar Land Rover Ltd: 1304471/2018 - Reasons

*@MrsTerryPratchett I believe it helps because a) it normalises the stating of pronouns. For someone has transitioned and has an ambiguous gender, it should then make it easier for them to also state preferred pronouns. B) in a very tiny way creates awareness that gender identity is a thing.

It’s not a perfect thing to do, but I judge it as good on the whole.*

So I get to emphasise my being a woman in the workplace, thereby increasing discrimination and bias against me because it lets people know “gender identity is a thing”? When gender identity is wholly socially constructed while sex based discrimination against women in the workplace is still hugely prevalent.

So as a woman I should be happy to make myself even more vulnerable to appease the sensitivities of others? That right there is one hell of a reinforcement of gender bias, women sacrifice yourself for the men (even those who don’t identify as men).

StillCoughingandLaughing
KaleSlayer
So if they refer to you as him or he, that will be fine, right? Because you don’t get to choose what pronouns they use to refer to you by?

Pronouns should be sex based like they always have been. So if they choose to call me something else, they’ll be wrong because I’m a biologically female so she/her are correct. Biology matters

Matters to you, maybe

😂 it matters to the survival of all of animal-kind actually.

@Strugglingtodomybest

So if gender identity is bullshit and pronouns are bullshit, and people shouldn't feel they have to tell others their pronouns - that sounds like a great case for all of us using they/them. Sounds good.

I'd be happy with that. I don't know why it's necessary to know other people's sex either.

Absolutely, I don't need to be labelled by what is in my knickers.

😂 it matters to the survival of all of animal-kind actually.

Oh pull your head out of your arse. Surely you have SOME understanding of context?

But why this protected characteristic and not others? Why anything personal, actually? Lots of my experiences might make others comfortable but it would be never ending.

I have a mental health disability but wouldn't dream of declaring it in my signature. Or my ethnicity. Or that I've had a miscarriage or an abortion though that might help others to know this. Or a divorce? Only child?

Jeez. What a mess.

Can you imagine it?

Boompah She/her/white/depressed/aborted/miscarried/only child/porridge for breakfast

Matters to you, maybe

Of course it matters to me. Biology matters. Sex matters. A few examples

Single sex spaces to keep women safe

In the medical setting to make sure people get the screenings and treatment they need

To make sure crime statistics are recorded correctly.

Sex is pretty important.

@StillCoughingandLaughing

😂 it matters to the survival of all of animal-kind actually.

Oh pull your head out of your arse. Surely you have SOME understanding of context?

Surely you have some awareness of reality?! Our biological sex impacts all of us.

It should always be optional and where stated should be 100% respected. People who are transitioning may not wish to say so to begin with, and by forcing the stating of personal pronouns, you are de facto asking someone to declare that they are doing so at a point where they may not yet be comfortable to do so.

What constitutes transitioning though? Wearing a frock? Using the women's bogs?

Surely you have some awareness of reality?! Our biological sex impacts all of us.

But someone else’s pronouns don’t.

@Jellycatspyjamas I don’t believe that stating my pronouns makes me more vulnerable in my workplace. I do agree that no one should be forced to state them, it should absolutely be a matter of choice.

There is nothing wrong with they/them grammatically as a singular (as a pp suggested):
"Oh look, that person has dropped their wallet, quick run after them".
"The client before you didn't leave their details." "Did they not?"
"Someone in the office had their birthday today, they brought doughnuts in". "That was very kind of them".

We use it all the time.

Using an expression all the time doesn’t make it grammatically correct.

Society is evolving and people are becoming more aware of basic manners and learning to accept things about theirselves.
You don't have to add them to your profile but you could at least have the common decency to respect other people's choices and pronouns, especially if they're not CIS ones.
You are just being rude and homophobic towards these people.

@Chicken212

Society is evolving and people are becoming more aware of basic manners and learning to accept things about theirselves. You don't have to add them to your profile but you could at least have the common decency to respect other people's choices and pronouns, especially if they're not CIS ones. You are just being rude and homophobic towards these people.

There's the confusing cis word again. There are a small number of trans people. There are a small number of people who believe in the concept of gender identity and feel they have one which matches their birth sex (that's cis right?). What about the vast majority of people, most of whom have no gender identity? For me one of the problems with this is it's reinforcing the idea that to have a gender identity at all is common. I really don't think it is. Most people see gender as a matter of biological fact, not a matter of identity. So requiring me, either by dictate or social pressure, to declare what sort of genitals I have feel horrific.

@Heneage many people will be reading emails or other correspondence from those they do not or rarely meet face to face, even more so now with the number of people who work from home.

No one has to do it and I don’t do it, but I’m Agender (biologically female) and i used to have my pronounss listed on my social media before I got rid of them all.

However, being tempted to write “giraffe / goat / duck” to yours is INCREDIBLY disrespectful and puts those who do fall under the transgender umbrella (like myself) at an incredible disadvantage of not being taken seriously when we’re already not taken seriously enough.

@Babbly

Aside from the fact that everyone on mumsnet has an issue with being transgender, it's useful for people who have gender neutral names (like Charlie or Riley or Jac etc), it's useful for people with foreign names where people in the country they're in won't be able to tell their gender, it's useful for people who have gender-neutral titles (like Dr). If you have a meeting with Dr Jones, sometimes it's nice to be able to determine if you're meeting a man or a woman - just to have some idea who to look for. If you're called Riley Smith, it's super annoying to constantly be called Mr Smith if you're female etc. Would you know whether Tinghuei is male or female? Not everything has to be about your opinions. It doesn't negatively impact you in any possible way and it benefits a lot of people in a lot of ways. Also, a lot of people do this in a lot of countries so clearly you need to widen your circle. Could you explain why you think it's a bad thing? You haven't actually provided any reason.

This x1000.

I don’t understand why the simple act of stating your pronouns is so offensive. You don’t have to do it if you don’t want to