American man can’t go on honeymoon due to unpaid child maintenance

[SinkGirl]

Stumbled across this in a group on Facebook - newlyweds can’t go on honeymoon as he has $2500 of unpaid child support which in his state means he can’t get a passport.

I think this is bloody brilliant. And wonder why we don’t do it here. AIBU?

YABU - unpaid child support shouldn’t prevent you getting a passport
YANBU - if you owe lots of child maintenance, you shouldn’t be able to get a passport / driving license etc

Slightly concerned that his new bride is so unconcerned by the fact she’s marrying a deadbeat - good luck to her in the future, I think she will need it.
(apparently this person’s profile showed a very expensive wedding too!)

@minniemomo

It's shame that courts in the USA don't seem order decent child maintenance, several friends are verging on destitute despite having exh's who earn $200k + and new trophy wives. Yes they got the house as settlement but kids need to eat!

Depends on the state and one of the worse mistakes women make in divorce is hanging onto a house they can't afford.

@ForThePurposeOfTheTape

Because the government does a better job of chasing money owed to them than money owed to resident parents. If taxpayers don't get their money back, politicians will be more incentivised to punish non-payers which in the long-term means fewer children kept in poverty.

Does this mean that you would be happy for those that have children (male and female) to pay extra taxes?

Maybe the childless should get a reduction or a rebate?

Don’t be ridiculous. Of course that’s true, I’m not stupid. However, Its not hard to support one child if you have a full time income and UC support...and if your ex is violent, no way would I want their bloody maintenance anyway.

You just said you find it odd how many men “suddenly turn abusive” well yes they do suddenly turn abusive when a woman is pregnant because they know she is trapped then, that’s not a hard concept to understand. Someone being abusive doesn’t mean they shouldn’t pay maintenance either

@Aprilshowersandhail

Maybe prevent them remarrying altogether? Men meet new dw's, assume financial liability for her dc and thus reducing what they have to pay for their OWN dc...

Maybe stop both people from having any further relationships till the children of the marriage move out?

We could even go one further and make sure that both parents have to stay within 20 (arbitrary number) miles of each other?

It's a ridiculous idea in this country to take away passports and driving licences - because you need to prove you have the right to work in the UK now for a huge number of jobs.

To take away literally the only universally accepted forms of adult photo ID around means any glee (at the idea of an ex being unable to go on holiday with a new woman or have to catch the bus) would soon be tempered by the Oh Shit moment when he can't get another job and his income is therefore reassessed as nil.

@nickymanchester

in lots of cases getting jobs / renting houses requires proof of ID such as passports and driving licenses or in some cases are mandatory.

@FlyingBurrito
Are you in England? I've never heard of anyone having to have a passport, where is that mandatory?

I would suspect that the person you asked is in the UK.

Are you really unaware that you need to show evidence that you have the right to work in the UK when you start a job or that you have the right to live in the UK when you rent a property?

You cannot rent anywhere in England unless you can prove that you have the right to live here.

This is a check that applies to all new tenants, and it’s against the law for a landlord to only check people they think aren’t British citizens. As such, you should expect your landlord to ask you for proof you can legally live here regardless of your nationality.

If people don't have a passport then they can use other things like a birth certificate.

Of course I know you need ID for some things.

I think maybe I was confused by the clumsy wording. I thought the PP was saying that a passport was mandatory or even a driving licence and I know that neither are in England.

I once had a job that involved checking ID and there was always an alternative for those (mainly older people) who'd never had either.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

It's a ridiculous idea in this country to take away passports and driving licences - because you need to prove you have the right to work in the UK now for a huge number of jobs.

To take away literally the only universally accepted forms of adult photo ID around means any glee (at the idea of an ex being unable to go on holiday with a new woman or have to catch the bus) would soon be tempered by the Oh Shit moment when he can't get another job and his income is therefore reassessed as nil.

I have neither. Never had an issue getting a job or a DBS check.

@notanothertakeaway

I'm fairly sure you can't be imprisoned for non payment of council tax

It can happen as a last resort. This is from the gov.uk site:-

www.gov.uk/council-tax-arrears

You can be sent to prison for up to 3 months if the court decides you don’t have a good reason to not pay your Council Tax and you refuse to do so.

It does still happen in some parts of England:-

Hundreds jailed for unpaid council tax

England remains the only part of the UK where individuals can be sent to prison for not paying local tax bills.

Nearly 700 people have been jailed for failing to pay their council tax since 2010, with a further 7,000 handed a suspended “committal order”, the latest figures reveal.

The statistics from the HM Courts and Tribunals Service, which span the 2010/11 to 2016/17 financial years, were released in a report by the Social Market Foundation, a think-tank, on Wednesday.

Non-payment of council tax is not a criminal offence. But under a law, dating back to the scrapping of the poll tax, councils can apply for a “committal order”, where a debtor can be imprisoned for up to three months.

England is the only nation in the UK where local authorities still use this power. Last year, Wales scrapped its use, bringing it in line with Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Meanwhile, the Social Market Foundation’s report found a “postcode lottery” in the way English councils used committal powers. In 2016/17, the majority — 180 of 279 — did not seek imprisonment of council tax debtors, but some did so frequently.

Labour-run Bradford Council was responsible for about one in five of all prison enforcement processes and committal orders for the whole of England in 2016/17, a freedom of information request revealed.

Chris Daw QC, a criminal barrister who wrote the report and has started a petition to have the legislation changed, said the law was “anachronistic, unfair, uneconomic and inhumane” and penalised vulnerable people.

“How can [there be] a postcode lottery over your liberty?” he asked. “It’s bad enough having one over your health. But the idea that somebody could go to prison for not paying council tax — something that’s not even a crime — while someone across the road won’t, is illogical and unfair.”

Women were disproportionately affected by council tax enforcement, he added, as they are more likely to have council tax bills in their own names. Fleeing domestic violence by moving into a refuge does not remove a woman’s legal obligation to pay council tax on her former home.

The law which gives English councils the power to imprison over unpaid tax — regulation 47 of the Council Tax Regulations 1992 — can be changed quickly as it is secondary legislation and does not require a vote in Parliament, Mr Daw said. Robert Jenrick, the communities secretary, could revoke it at a “stroke of a pen” but successive governments had failed to “take responsibility,” Mr Daw added.

www.gov.uk/council-tax-arrears

Thanks @nickymanchester that's interesting. I'm not in England. Assumed it was the same throughout the uk

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

It's a ridiculous idea in this country to take away passports and driving licences - because you need to prove you have the right to work in the UK now for a huge number of jobs.

To take away literally the only universally accepted forms of adult photo ID around means any glee (at the idea of an ex being unable to go on holiday with a new woman or have to catch the bus) would soon be tempered by the Oh Shit moment when he can't get another job and his income is therefore reassessed as nil.

I think being creative, if the self employed man who doesn't pay any maintenance then losing either of these items is okay.

For everyone else, if they are PAYE then it should be deducted at source, and when the amount owing is paid, along with a consistent payment, then the person who cannot be arsed to pay maintenance can be given a temporary driving licence for 12 months which can be revoked in the event of non payment. That would work quite well, I think.

@Lockheart

I don't disagree with the sentiment but in lots of cases getting jobs / renting houses requires proof of ID such as passports and driving licenses or in some cases are mandatory. Someone unemployed is going to be much harder to get any arrears out of.

There are people without either - there are schemes such as CitizenCard to help.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CitizenCard

Or they could let you get a passport but bar you from leaving the country. You get ID but have the same outcome.

@Sooperdooper19

I don’t understand why it’s the government’s responsibility in the first place. Dads that don’t pay maintenance are shite it’s true but that’s a personal thing between two people who have children together. My ex didn’t pay maintenance so I ensured he had the kids 50/50 so I could work full time also. In fairness that was fine because he’s a good dad. I find it odd the amount of dads that ‘suddenly become abusive/lazy/uninterested’ once they have a child/children but mothers never do (allegedly)

It’s not the government’s responsibility. In fact I’d wager the reason America enforces this stuff when we don’t is because America generally has an ideological dislike of the government financially supporting children / families and they’d rather men support their own children.

Oh yes please or anything to make them pay, at source preferably. Might just make men more responsible.

Reminds me of a conversation with a CMS staff member. My ExDH was massively in arrears ( thousands) having hardly ever paid.

CMS staff member rang to tell me that she had tried to ring him as he'd refused to pay the extra £2.20 per month they had asked him to pay towards his arrears. He'd told her in no uncertain terms that he could not afford the extra £2.20 each month.

She said to me 'we are just going to have to leave it, I can't seem to get hold of him'.

My response 'no you won't...he's skiing in Switzerland for three weeks'

It's a ridiculous idea in this country to take away passports and driving licences - because you need to prove you have the right to work in the UK now for a huge number of jobs.

Pretty good incentive to pay child support then, isn’t it? If you can’t get a job, it’s not only child support you can’t pay

I have neither. Never had an issue getting a job or a DBS check

Try turning up at an agency now without proof of your right to work in the UK. Or the NHS. Or a school. Or a local authority. In fact, even being self employed is dodgy, as if you want to invoice public bodies, they often refuse to pay sole traders without seeing proof of ID in the form of a passport.

DP didn't have either a few years back. He moved into my house, which meant there were no utility bills in his name. He wasn't on the council tax bill because it took them eight weeks to issue a new one - which then, because it was electronic and not a piece of paper, wasn't acceptable. No letter confirming benefits because he had never claimed any. His P60 wasn't acceptable because it was too old and his P45 from his recent employer was solely digital, which was also unacceptable due to not being a physical one.

His full birth certificate hadn't been issued at birth (one of his parents had that somewhere 230 miles away and still hasn't found it) - my mother never wanted a full birth certificate when I was born because she said it wasn't free, unlike the short form - and, in any case, anybody could get hold of a birth certificate at the time; hopefully they've tightened up on that these days.

What actually got him back into work was a friend of mine lying on a passport application that she had known him for two years. Once he had that, he could then get other ID, a volunteer DBS (since converted into full DBS with Enhanced Disclosure and registered with the Update Service) and pretty much overnight, he became employable again.

When we spent a short time claiming Universal Credit, the ID interviews were 'Oh, thank goodness you've got a valid passport/driving licence, I've had to send away four people today because they didn't have anything'. When registering at a new GP practice, the policy was No Passport - No Registration.

When I took an Open University course around 2007, if you didn't have a valid passport or driving licence, the rules were that the invigilators could refuse entry. It was only because I had DC at school that I could get a passport, as other than the Head, I genuinely knew nobody who was both a suitable person and a British passport holder and would therefore be able to verify my identity. I don't drive because of disability, so have never had a driving licence; if I had applied for a Provisional (and most requirements say Full licences only, by the way) even if it were just for the purposes of having photo ID, I would have been committing a criminal offence because I would have got it whilst being medically unfit to drive.

The Hostile Environment policies that have come in since that time mean that now, unless you are happy to rent from a dodgy landlord, work cash in hand and can guarantee you won't need non emergency medical treatment, you're screwed.

@Happycat1212

Don’t be ridiculous. Of course that’s true, I’m not stupid. However, Its not hard to support one child if you have a full time income and UC support...and if your ex is violent, no way would I want their bloody maintenance anyway.

You just said you find it odd how many men “suddenly turn abusive” well yes they do suddenly turn abusive when a woman is pregnant because they know she is trapped then, that’s not a hard concept to understand. Someone being abusive doesn’t mean they shouldn’t pay maintenance either

Of course I understand what you’re saying but why is it always women who are the victims? Anyway I’m sure not every broken relationship is due to DV against women. Sometimes and in my experience, very often, it’s the women taking advantage. Expecting to work p/t whilst not really pulling their weight domestically with older school age kids. Some do, a lot don’t in MY experience. So why wouldn’t the male partner have 50/50 residency? Sometime not because they’re shit fathers but purely because they have seen less of their children growing up and have less of a bond due to having to work long hours to support a partner who doesn’t wish to work full time. Again I reiterate, this is MY experience and not always the case.

@Saz432

It's a ridiculous idea in this country to take away passports and driving licences - because you need to prove you have the right to work in the UK now for a huge number of jobs.

Pretty good incentive to pay child support then, isn’t it? If you can’t get a job, it’s not only child support you can’t pay

Not really. If somebody's been made redundant, they need another job - but taking away the means by which to get another job means there's even less hope of getting anything in the future or the assessed amount ever increasing. Making them homeless might feel good to you because you've been rejected, but doesn't achieve anything of use.

Try turning up at an agency now without proof of your right to work in the UK. Or the NHS. Or a school. Or a local authority. In fact, even being self employed is dodgy, as if you want to invoice public bodies, they often refuse to pay sole traders without seeing proof of ID in the form of a passport.

I have done in the last 2-3 years. Proof doesn't have to be a passport or driving license. They prefer it to be because its easier. It doesn't have to be.

You can get your passport cancelled for non payment of child support in the UK. I don't think it's done often but it got put through government a little while ago. They're notoriously shit with chasing up non payments and following through with sanctioning so I can't see them going to the effort of applying to the dwp for cancelling a passport, but it can be done as long as its gone past the bailiff stage and not resolved. Order can last for up to 2 years and if debt still outstanding can be reapplied for once it runs out.

Sorry, I’m perhaps not explaining myself very well. I suppose what I’m trying to say is why do women continually put themselves financially at a disadvantage, why not the male partner? Women say they want equality but I’m not sure all do.

@WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

Why would you need a passport to get a job?

I've had to show my passport to prove I have the right to work in the UK. I'm English and have been in the same job for nearly 20 years so I was surprised and I don't know what the other options were if I didn't have a passport!

Birth certificate and proof of address(sometimes 2) is usually fine if you don't have a passport.

This sounds like a typical bitter woman post.

@HelenHywater

The CMS does have very clear and usable powers to remove passports for non payment of child maintenance, it just chooses not exercise those powers. it removed something like 6 passports last year.

Maybe we need a different approach then. After all, not everyone is bothered if they can’t travel and it’s obviously not a deterrent to stop people not support their children.

I wonder how many would decide not to have children if there were no benefits or any that were claimed were a loan and had to be paid back. There must be a number of ways to ensure responsibility stops with the parents whether single or together.

@ForThePurposeOfTheTape

Because the government does a better job of chasing money owed to them than money owed to resident parents. If taxpayers don't get their money back, politicians will be more incentivised to punish non-payers which in the long-term means fewer children kept in poverty.

Not here they don’t

Many years ago it was decided that if the RP was on benefits they could only keep £20 a week from maintenance. The rest was owed to the Secretary of State to go toward the benefits bill.

Money owed to SoS wasn’t ever written off and could be chased long after the kids turned 18 - money was still owed to them when my father died when u was nearly 30!

With the amount of money they didn’t collect building and building it was decided that something must be done because this mountain of uncollected debt couldn’t go on... so they decided RP’s could keep the maintenance and it wouldn’t count toward benefits.

Child maintenance is not, and never has been, something that has any political will behind it. They don’t use the powers they have as it is abd, like many depts, they’re understaffed, undertrained and underfunded.