My 16yo DS and his girlfriend (Part 2)

[workworkworkugh]

Just opening a new thread as I believe the other one is getting full.
Will try and link the old one

because I think OP it isnt about acting in anger or trying to punish her. The way she is acting is far from normal from a 15 year old girl and that doesnt happen in a vacuum. Neither it is likely to be something that just goes away.

She needs help, and from the sounds of it specialised help - and if you have the name of the Police Officer who is trained they can start that process. They should be able to help - and if they dont then the system is wrong

@workworkworkugh Of course I don't know you and I apologise in advance for being presumptuous. But from what you've said this was my impression.
e.g - he's still being driven around. He still has access to his mobile phone (pretty sure you are paying for his mobile internet and the rest). He still has access to his expensive xbox, he is still allowed to get to her when he wants etc.
I mean, I'm seriously asking: what should your teenager boy do so that you and your husband could properly think about some proper form of punishment?!

When I was a teenager and had my first boyfriend of course I started being angry because my parents didn't allow me to spend long periods of time with him. And we are talking about a very nice and polite guy. Just that my parents thought that I should concentrate more on my studies because they were working their asses off to provide me with a decent education. So far from being an abusive relationship. I couldn't dream of my parents, or of my other friends' parents to accept the things you and your husband have accepted.
We would have all been grounded for life!!! For your son's and girlfriend's attitude we would have ended up in a work camp :)))

At one point (I was 18 and in my last year of highschool) I ran away with my boyfriend to a seaside resort from my home country.
When I went back home the situation was pretty simple: My dad opened the door and told me that I have 2 hours to think about what I want to do with my life.
He told me that he understands that he can't force me to do anything but: if I choose to move in with the guy (his mom was the type of mum very eager to see our relationship work) him and my mum will stop financing me. No more money for private tutors, clothes etc and I can do whatever I want with my life.
But if I choose to stay with them and continue my studies etc I have to live by their own rules.

I knew he wasn't joking. I spent 2 hours on my parents' couch just thinking about my options. And I've realised that if my parents stoped financing me I will end up having my boyfriend's mum deal with me...and still put rules in place. I knew for a fact that nothing comes free in life. So I've decided that it's better to respect my own parents and to live by their rules.
But again, I knew that my parents weren't joking.

So all in all...sometimes it's better to be a forceful parent instead of playing the best friend game with them.

People need to realise this is a real life timescale not mumsnet timescale and @workworkworkugh is truly worried about her son and trying to come to a workable compromise. It’s all very well harking on about being tough etc, but all that will do is drive her obsessed son into the arms of the girlfriend and her delusional family. At the moment lines of communication are still open, and I think that is so important, when it does go tits up the son will know he can talk it through with his mother.

What I would do though is invite them for family occasions and insist on them coming so son can see normality, and constantly include awful girlfriend in family meals etc so she experiences proper behaviour.

The incitement to murder is appalling but OP is taking advise on this. I know nothing about injunctions or the effect they have, especially in Australia, but if not an injunction perhaps a word from a suitably scary member of the police might give the girl a dose of reality.

I really feel for you OP .

Good luck OP anyway. I don’t think the posters asking you to act, are haranguing you but instead are caring about you and your situation. I think everyone here is sympathetic that it must be awful. take care of yourself!

The only thing I would add, and of course, up to you what you do it is your family, your home, your DS. But there is a lot of fear that if you act in any way strong, that you will ‘harm DS’ or ‘push them together’ or ‘harm the girls mental health’. Making an active decision that is about putting up boundaries, such as either a restraining order, or telling your DS not to contact her, or taking away his phone.

This will always get push back, abuse is all about tearing down boundaries. So this kind of action feels scary. It feels like it might cause consequences that are somehow your fault. However this is an illusion, as inaction also has consequences, the difference is you won’t feel as if you are to blame. You didn’t do anything.

The GF got to the point of telling your DS to kill you, and of making your DS very unhappy and controlled, without any ‘hard’ action from you. This happened within an environment of acceptance from all of you. They are a runaway train already.

@Horehound

What restrictions do you actually give your son? As far as I can see you let him have his cake and eat it

@Horehound I am seeing the same thing.

My grandmother had a saying: if you don't put rules in place for your children and teenagers they will end up beating you when you'll be old. I always found this funny...but seeing some of the new parenting style nowadays...I think she was right.
I'm not really surprised that a 15 year old girl finds it ok to spread death threats when she doesn't get what she wants. Dead threats and she and your son are still being pampered by all of you adults?!

And yes, I think the mental health card is way too easily played when we're basically talking about some very very very spoiled children (yes, 15 -16 year old are still children) that through very nasty tantrums when they don't get what they want.
When grown-ups start being afraid of their children/teenagers all hell will broke loose in no time.

@Daria10 I would be frightened that I would push this girl into scatter things if I were more restrictive though. She asked her boyfriend to kill the OP. It’s not to be taken lightly. She asked him this when the OP hasn’t kept them apart, what more will she demand or do if the OP does? Getting proper professional help is a good thing for the OP to do. The police can advise and she can do what they recommend instead of acting on impulse.

@BibbleBibble I totally understand what you mean and you might be right.

However if I were the boy's mum I wouldn't care in the least for the girl. She does have parents, doesn't she?! It's their problem and they have to deal with their own child.

But as long as my boy lives under my roof and I work my ass off to pay for his private school, hobbies etc he won't be allowed to see her again. And he should be made aware that he's far from being an adult if he doesn't understand what respect is. Your girlfriend/wife is threatening your mother and you find this normal?! Ok my boy, I think it's time to see how hard life really is: no more pocket money, no more paying for his hobbies etc.

I am sorry but for the time being I stick to my point of view because facts support this: the children saw that they have all the power and they act accordingly by not giving a flying fuck. The situation will get worse.

@Daria10 I do see what you are saying. I guess it’s just the fear of what happens next. It could go well, or it could go very badly, and as parents the fear of the very badly can sometimes hold us back.

I can’t believe her parents, I would be incensed if she were my child. This whole situation is madness

I think @Startingagainperson is totally right: sometimes inaction is worse.

@BibbleBibble Yes, it could and it will most probably get worse but this can also put an end to a very awful situation once and for all.

I would ask myself: did my boy learn anything from these past experiences? Is he acting like he really understood the situation?
At the moment it seem that he didn't understand anything...on the contrary. So then I would ask myself: how can things turn worse than they already are if I create an action plan?

How can a child understand that every action has consequences if his parents accept so easily everything that has happened?!
To have a boyfriend like this girl, to have my parents know about dead threats and to see them not doing nothing and still pampering me?! I can't imagine this scenario no matter how hard I try.

But then again...our parents weren't so scared about their teenagers' mental health and they didn't give in so easily to these type of emotional blackmails.
It was always: my house my rules. life is hard, deal with it.

I am seriously wondering if there is anything that can scare these children?!
They're not afraid about punishments because they saw that this never happens. They are not afraid that their parents will stop funding their habits - because again this never happened. They are not afraid of rules because no one pushes any rule them.

Is it really ok for them on the long term to develop this delusional way of thinking in which they seriously believe that no matter what they do, life will still be nice to them?!

This is all very strange. Multiple attempts at incitement to murder and that's not the line for ops son? Police don't seem that interested even though I'm pretty sure that trying to incite murder is as much of a crime in Australia as it is in the UK. Weird.

[quote workworkworkugh]@Daria10 I hear what you're saying, and maybe we have been lenient, but without knowing by us personally how can you be sure that's the right way to go about things?

I can understand people's frustration that they think I'm not doing enough, but a few of you seem so sure that your way is the right way and it should have happened yesterday! But how do you know?

How do you know that if we do it your way that DS isn't going to move in with them and we not see him for years?
How do you know that DS might have had enough of feeling like he's in the middle and struggle so much that he kills himself?
Because we know all the details of our son and our life and those two options would be more likely than her actually trying to hurt me.

I have seen her twice in recent days and she's ran away both times, as in literally turned and ran when I haven't even said a word to her. She's all talk. Not to say we're not looking at our options but I also don't want to rush into something in a fit of anger, I'd rather find out the information and make an informed decision.[/quote]
It's obviously much more nuanced decision for you, however in a way that nuance doesn't matter because the message in your hesitation is that you are doing that to keep the status quo and therefore accept it - in order to keep your son happy. Your son in turn is behaving codependently in order to keep his girlfriend happy... it's a really hard thing to break out of. It's painful. Literally physically painful breaking codependent bonds. I know, I've done it with family and no one spoke to me for a year. However if you don't, no one will. Your son NEEDS YOU to model the behaviour that this situation is unacceptable. Without that you'll all fudge along until the next crisis and drama. That's how codependency works. Please consider therapy for yourself and husband and how to break these patterns because it strikes me that your family would really benefit from that kind of support. You say she is all mouth, but in essence so are you...

@BilboBercow

This is all very strange. Multiple attempts at incitement to murder and that's not the line for ops son? Police don't seem that interested even though I'm pretty sure that trying to incite murder is as much of a crime in Australia as it is in the UK. Weird.

This is also very worrying indeed. It simply feels like it's the Lord of the Flies novel happening in real life. Adults acting like their hands are tied whilst children have all the power.

@mealsonwheelz
Your son NEEDS YOU to model the behaviour that this situation is unacceptable. Without that you'll all fudge along until the next crisis and drama.

This!!! I totally agree with you.

I remember when I was a teenager and getting angry and sometimes being very rude with my mum/dad etc. This was never allowed. I was being punished on the spot for lack of respect shown towards my parents.
E.g - no more money for going out with my friends, not allowed to go to parties, help them with work, for a fixed period of time grounded and not allowed to see my friends etc.

As I said before, I can't imagine having these teenagers' freedom, money and pampered life whilst at the same time acting in such a terrible way.
eg. He's 16 and his parents have to beg for a simple family dinner?! WTF?! Is he living a hotel or in his parents' home who pay for everything?!

And yes I would be more worried for his life as a future grown-up that will need to pay his bills instead of worrying that he'll pull a tantrum because I punished his behaviour. Better to be punished by me NOW whilst he's still a kid and I can protect him then to be punished later in life by the society because I wasn't capable to teach him what responsibility really is.

@Satis

OP, sorry, but my suspension of disbelief has failed.

The solution to your problem is to get a restraining order against a sociopath who tried to have you killed. You refuse to do this, you say, because it might ruin the sociopath's future career, or other people might judge you for protecting your family, or other implausible excuses. Before you said the police didn't take the death threat seriously, yet for some reason you didn't push them on it.

So you say you're upset, but not solving the problem for what seem like specious reasons--perhaps suspense? After all, you couldn't keep this epic thread going any longer if you actually solved the problem....

Oh come on now, ‘sociopath who tried to have you killed?!’

Girlfriend clearly isn’t the only drama queen around! Also 15 year olds are too young to be diagnosed with personality disorders because their personality is still developing so let’s leave the armchair diagnosis yeah?

OP, the tone of some of the posts on here is starting to get a bit bonkers and unhelpful. Or happens all the time unfortunately.

Don’t feel obligated to get the restraining order if that’s not what you feel is best just because some posters might doubt your veracity.

I have a 16 year old son myself who got put off having girlfriends when the last one acted out a bit after being dumped, nothing too crazy but told a bunch of lies about him to his friends and shit. The other day he told me and his auntie he ‘doesn’t believe in love anymore’ which we did have a bit of a chuckle about!

I think as long as she doesn’t get pregnant this will end soon enough, maybe more with a bang than a whimper but still.

Am not sure there is a right way or a wrong to deal with this. Teenagers are so incredibly difficult, and coming down hard on him will almost certainly get sympathy from the girlfriend and her parents.

It's worse than children playing off divorced parents as this is a 15 year old girl who somehow has managed to be very manipulative where her parents don't seem to have any boundaries.

The only thing I might do is make some ground rule that are achievable such as having at least one meal with the family, maybe Sunday?

And maybe not mention the girlfriend, but the effect it is having by being with her such as, 'am concerned about your grades,' or, 'such a shame you haven't seen [name of friend]...'

Keeping communication going is really the only thing that will let him talk about his concerns..

[quote workworkworkugh]@Satis thanks so much for the doubt.
It has actually been a great support to me to be able to talk here.
I didn't intend or expect the thread to blow up and I'm not doing anything for 'suspense', I'm genuinely struggling with this whole thing.
You don't know me or my family, just what I have written here.

I know I am too nice for my own good sometimes and I am reading all the advice, half is saying to do one thing and half the other, and I can see both sides reasoning, but until you've been in this situation it's easy to sit back and tell someone what to do, not as easy when it's happening directly to you.

My DH spoke to his police friend today and he has given me the name of a specific person to speak to at our local station who is best to handle these types of situations.[/quote]
What half and half? The overwhelming majority want you to get a restraining order.

And I'm sorry, but I can't be doing with 'too nice for my own good. It's not being nice at all. How far do you need to be pushed before you slap her down?

God I've just read all of the two threads . You will be totally emotionally exhausted now , I would be so worried too in your situation , my son is very sensitive and I already worry about the situations that relationships will bring . I think as hard as it is , a massive step back might just work as there is no longer anything / anyone to rebel against for excitement and drama , girls like this thrive on the drama so hopefully it will fizzle out . Really feel for you , it sounds horrendous

"but until you've been in this situation it's easy to sit back and tell someone what to do, not as easy when it's happening directly to you."

Except many posters on the two threads HAVE been in this situation, one with their own son that ended in violence! It only changed when she threatened real consequences with the police.

I really hope this new police contact gives you a strong way to move forward. That text message was chilling. She clearly wasn't being lighthearted.

For some perspective I asked both my teens (my daughter is 15 - same age as the girl, son 17) what they thought should happen. Both said that you should get the restraining order, get your son out of the picture somehow for a while and be strict. They believe you are giving mixed messages to your son by letting him carry on as he is and that it feels like you're actually ok with the relationship - and thus the threat - even though you're saying you're not. Both say that your son will thank you in the end, that he may hate you for a while but that you can't drive him into her arms as he's now so brainwashed he's already in her arms - you need to get him OUT. For them that means full on, being the parent, strict "that's it that's the end, she's ruining our lives, it's over." My daughter said that he may need and actually want that full on takeover. My daughter thinks that your son is the one whose mental health is going to suffer the most, possibly for a long time, and for that reason alone you need to get him out of the situation, as far away and for as long as possible. He needs to reset, like a post cult debriefing.

My son confessed that his first girlfriend started doing the text harassment and wanting him to stop seeing his friends. In his words "it was a massive red flag and I just ended it as soon as she started." Both talked about red flags: I didn't think they would even know the term and it actually made me realise I should have had a healthy relationships chat with them a looooong time ago.

I know it must seem impossible for you at the moment - I truly wish you well and can get this resolved. It probably has been a wake up call for many of us with teens.

Wise words from @JudyGemstone.

Lots of people on here absolutely sure they are right in what YOU (OP) should do and yet every situation is different and really unless you've been in this scenario with these exact characters you really cannot be 100% sure what you would do.

@Molecule

People need to realise this is a real life timescale not mumsnet timescale and *@workworkworkugh* is truly worried about her son and trying to come to a workable compromise. It’s all very well harking on about being tough etc, but all that will do is drive her obsessed son into the arms of the girlfriend and her delusional family. At the moment lines of communication are still open, and I think that is so important, when it does go tits up the son will know he can talk it through with his mother.

What I would do though is invite them for family occasions and insist on them coming so son can see normality, and constantly include awful girlfriend in family meals etc so she experiences proper behaviour.

The incitement to murder is appalling but OP is taking advise on this. I know nothing about injunctions or the effect they have, especially in Australia, but if not an injunction perhaps a word from a suitably scary member of the police might give the girl a dose of reality.

I really feel for you OP .

Me too @workworkworkugh hope you feeling o.k it is a hard process for you to step back we can see that.

She’ll be pregnant in no time. Your DS clearly doesn’t know how to tell her no.

@Icancelledthecheque what a helpful comment to a mother who is clearly distressed. Well done.

My son had a similar although less extreme situation and I agree with OP that you cant force older DC to do anything especially when there is another family willing to welcome them. The girl in question had MH issues. She self harmed. he didnt see her as controlling and jealous he saw it as her being overly anxious. She wanted him to be a buffer between her and the world. She isolated him into her safe little bubble except it was suffocating for him. He did get fed up with it and did end it although he delayed because of what he feared her reaction would be. While this girl is more extreme I also think alot of girls growing up today with social media have huge self esteem problems. These sort of relationships are one way it comes out. I have seen a lot of girls behave in similar ways. Boys talk about it alot. Its validation. Having a bf helps their self esteem for a bit. But doesnt fix it. So they test the bf and demand bigger demonstrations of their devotion. Even when the girl is horrible if the boy stays then that is validation. And the boys go along with it because they want the girl to feel better about herself. But then they end up feeding the low self esteem monster and ultimately nothing the boy will ever do will be enough because the girl has to fix self esteem from within. Its easy to say this is police situation etc but there will be girls in every class at 15-18 behaving in similar if less extreme ways. It is incredibly common and they never go for the alpha male they always go for the kind, sensitive often shy boy they can manipulate. I think you are doing the right thing keeping communication open and not giving him an ultimatum. My DS had to figure it out himself and come home to a safe space. If he will read info about dating someone with low self esteem / other MH issues then that may help him see that by giving in to it he isnt helping either of them as she is just avoiding dealing with her issues. The girl was an only child and the parents also encouraged it as I suspect it meant her anxiety etc was more under control and made their life easier - except all they were doing was dumping her MH problems on a teen boy to deal with. It wasnt the same years ago. The number of girls with serious MH issues has rocketed as a result of social media. My DC will openly chat about girl x or girl y being off school with eating disorders or anxiety for months etc. Even at 11/12 my DC would say there are girls who wont leave the house for school without taking a photo of themselves to check their appearance and post it on SM. They say that even the most attractive girls still openly worry about their looks and are super self critical and have no self esteem. They recognise and talk about how its far worse for girls than boys. I cannot even imagine being a teenage girl today and its no wonder we see girls wanting approval and attention from boys in unhealthy ways

Wonderful post YorkshireHillbilly

@Yorkshirehillbilly I’m not sure what being an only child has to do with that and to be honest that generalisation is hurtful to us onlys who don’t have issues like this. Bring an only doesn’t mean you’re raised badly or will treat others this way.