Are women treated as second class citizens by the NHS?

[urkidding]

The pill causes clots but a lot of women are supposed to put up with this risk. Good GPs may inform them, it is written in small print in the booklet in their pill packets. The pill causes lots of side effects , depression, weight increase, bloating being some of them. Now it is interesting that the MHRA dealt with the blood clots caused by the Oxford vaccine straight away, yet the pill has hardly changed. I know there are alternatives, but they are less effective. New alternatives can be developed, but the drug companies have no incentive in developing them as the NHS had accepted it in its present form. I very much doubt that men would put up with this sort of medication.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

Yes. 100%.

It's one reason why I left the NHS to retrain as a teacher after working some years in women's healthcare. I have so many examples. I didn't have the energy to fight a losing battle anymore. I put on record it's because I couldn't bear the disparity in healthcare for women and how dehumanising it is and the culture needs to change. That piece of info will be in a HR file somewhere never to be read. But it was actually affecting my mental health, seeing women mistreated, standing up for them and being shot down by Matrons.

Complaints against me were always from men and along the lines of "I didn't like that, when I said "what am I suppose to do with my kids" when my wife came in for emergency surgery and would be hospitalised for at least 2 days, James replied "you could look after them?"'...or "James wouldn't allow my wife to be discharged early when I was struggling at home" when men wanted their wives, who were in no fit state to leave, to come home and put a wash on. I'd actually be in meetings getting told how I was wrong to say these things! People do NOT like women who speak out.

I was chatting to an acquaintance at the weekend who said that her MIL and FIL ended up in the delivery suite while she gave birth, against her wishes. They were allowed to just waltz in, the midwife allowed it. And he had a bad back and there was nowhere to sit so the midwife suggested he have a seat in the corner of the room. No one asked the actual patient who was vulnerable, half naked and in pain, if this was ok. She was too nervous to speak out. Female patients don't have a voice. This is just one example in one area of healthcare among many of how women are dehumanised. I hate it, I really do.

Thank you for saying this. It's helpful to hear actual medics too describing it for what it is.

I do think it's important to acknowledge, as you have done, that it is not just men in healthcare who are guilty of this, it is also women. I had (undiagnosed) PTSD after a horrific labour. The team of 5 midwives on shift (all women) kept dismissing what I was saying, talked over me, and insisted I wasn't really in labour at all even when I had been crying with pain for several hours and unable to speak.

Similar to what you describe with your acquaintance, the stepchild of another woman kept wandering into my cubicle (which had the curtains closed). Just to stand there, watching. The child's father was several metres away and did nothing. Nor, it must be said, did my own partner. The midwives tried to GUILT me for saying the child should not be intruding!

Finally, the shift changed and the new midwives who came on saw immediately that I needed proper help and the pain relief I had been begging for hours earlier. Later, I lodged a formal complaint (on the advice of my lovely GP.) The complaint was clearly handled by lawyers and I received no apology, the whole process consisted of gaslighting me ("It wasn't really like that" etc) and trying to make me feel guilty for lodging a complaint ("The midwives you mention in your complaint are very upset.")

It is a whole culture. And yes, dehumanised is the right word, absolutely. Far too many people within that culture, men and women, insist that such experiences are simple mix-ups and rare aberrations when, in reality, they are actually common.

Start your own thread if you think men have shit healthcare
Then it becomes a thread moaning about the NHS in general. There are plenty of these already.

@dontdisturbmenow

Start your own thread if you think men have shit healthcare Then it becomes a thread moaning about the NHS in general. There are plenty of these already.

As opposed to a thread about women's healthcare moaning about how hard men have it?

@dontdisturbmenow

Could it be just maybe, that the reason why women think they have it so much worse than men is because they are so focused on themselves, their rights, their entitlements, that they miss that they are not the oy ones with issues and what they make to be sexist just isn't?

No. Even the government and NHS admit there's disparity. Women aren't imagining it.

But while we're here - who should women be centering in their healthcare exactly? I'd love to know

I think there are two issues - one is the NHS which is like a national religion and can therefore do no wrong. In that sense, it's not just women, and the way whistleblowers fare in the NHS beggars belief, I don't understand why the NHS doesn't want to improve.

DH says he gets fobbed off and told things are all in his mind as much as woman would do. I don't know about that, but it's certainly true that the NHS (at least in primary care) fobs everyone off.

On the other hand you have the wider issue that the default body is a male body and there isn't the health data on women - we're just considered to be anomalies and have pesky hormones (I was reading Invisible Women this weekend) so don't have the appropriate studies carried out.

And then you have the internalised misogyny. How many women on here berate other women for wanting elective c-sections to avoid painful vaginal deliveries. Why do you even care how other women give birth? Then you have the women who are incapable of accepting that some women have terribly heavy periods. There is a feeling that women should simply put up with bad experiences, even from other women.

I think there are two issues - one is the NHS which is like a national religion and can therefore do no wrong. In that sense, it's not just women, and the way whistleblowers fare in the NHS beggars belief, I don't understand why the NHS doesn't want to improve.

This is a really good point. As an ex-nurse I'm the first to say nurses aren't all the unsung angels they're made out to be (I invite since COVID and the clapping etc it's harder to speak out too). Some I came across were awful people who shouldn't be allowed to cate for a slug let alone a woman. There's also the whole "as long as baby is ok that's what matters". I've heard HCPs actually say this to women. Then you have a sea of women not speaking up about the fact they were shouted at when in pain/not listened to that they needed to push/told to get up and walk after a c-section/told they're being hysterical because they are determined to breastfeed (real examples), just putting up with inhumane care because 'well the baby's fine'. women often don't even recognise their own invisibility

@dontdisturbmenow

Could it be just maybe, that the reason why women think they have it so much worse than men is because they are so focused on themselves, their rights, their entitlements, that they miss that they are not the oy ones with issues and what they make to be sexist just isn't?

😂😂😂

I have had 2 NHS c-sections and 1 private stomach muscle surgery.

With the c-sections I was left in pain for hours and told I couldn't go home if I needed oramorph. I was told I needed to be up and about as quickly as possible and expected to breastfeed ASAP and change baby as soon as I was up. I left the ward as soon as I could because I would have DH at home to do everything bar breastfeeding.

With my similar but private surgery I was on complete bedrest for 48 hours post surgery. Even doing wees in plastic trays supported by nurses (no catheter which I hated its removal on NHS). Regular paracetamol and ibuprofen with a pain level check afterwards and oramorph given on request with no judgement or warnings of longer stay. No baby to care for so 100% focused on myself and recovery. Regular sachets of Movicol which NO ONE even told me about never mind offered for my c-sections. I had to find out the hard way the first time and self medicate the second time.

I appreciate that's NHS vs private but I didn't feel listened to at all during pregnancy, birth and post natal. I'm still angry and the number of decisions that are made for you and your voice is ignored. I needed the care I got privately when I had the c-sections but because birth is a conveyor belt of churning out babies the women vessel is completely ignored. Baby's OK. Yes but mother is totally wrecked. Let's bundle her out of the conveyor belt anyway and not listen to how awful she feels. Baby's OK.

I have numerous examples of not being listened to when I receive care and I work in vulnerable advocacy. It makes me so cross that women are blamed for being hysterical, emotional, hormonal, menopausal and their voice is ignored because of it. Why not work with what women are and have rather than blaming them for not being like men?

In my experience I am dismissed every time I see a healthcare professional, up to and including the time I was struggling to breathe (for three weeks eventually) with covid. Absolutely unbelievable looking back on it. Never again will I bother seeking help for a medical issue. None of the men in my life are treated like this.

I had an odd experience of this once. Was referred to a consultant due to a facial injury which had resulted in some scarring. The first consultant I had seen when injured who had treated it had advised that revisionary work would required in a few years due to likely skin drooping and the possibility it might affect my ability to eat (worst case scenario). My GP agreed and referred me. All perfectly standard.

The male consultant insisted that nothing could be done and that I should instead be referred for psychological treatment to "help me cope with my facial disfigurement" and that this sort of treatment was "often helpful to women of my age to help us cope with the fact that our appearance was changing and we didn't look the same as we did when younger". Wouldn't listen to any reasoning about the first consultant telling me to be referred or the medical reasons why he had deemed it advisable.

I was fuming, and got a relative to write him a solicitor's letter reiterating what he had said and how it was potentially negligent as well as sex discrimination. Got a second opinion, minor op 6 months later for the revision surgery, never heard from the first consultant again but I did file a proper complaint about him and got the usual placatory response.

What an arse he was! The most stupid thing of all is that I was only 39, looked really young for my age, look really attractive and I was only following the previous surgeon's advice due to the area of my face it was in!

I often wondered if I should have gone along to the psychology appointment for a laugh (except that it would have then appeared in my medical notes). "So you're concerned about your facial disfigurement?" Me: "Erm, no. What facial disfigurement? I think I look really good. Can you point out to me where this is please?"

The being expected to care for baby and get own food/water etc hours after birth even if had surgery is horrific. I had DD at 8am but was numb from neck down until evening due to epidural and spinal (prepped for c section had keilands forceps/extensive tearing in end) No food at all or hot drink. Anyone recovering from surgery or a procedure needs care - you get a cup of tea and a biscuit just for giving blood. But give birth and it’s a breezy oh you need to get on with it.

Could it be just maybe, that the reason why women think they have it so much worse than men is because they are so focused on themselves, their rights, their entitlements, that they miss that they are not the oy ones with issues and what they make to be sexist just isn't?

No. Because it’s accepted by people in government and in healthcare who are considerably cleverer than you that there is a healthcare disparity. Get off the Incel forums and do some actual research.

@KarmaKarmaKarma

Could it be just maybe, that the reason why women think they have it so much worse than men is because they are so focused on themselves, their rights, their entitlements, that they miss that they are not the oy ones with issues and what they make to be sexist just isn't?

No. Because it’s accepted by people in government and in healthcare who are considerably cleverer than you that there is a healthcare disparity. Get off the Incel forums and do some actual research.

No, for me its the proven link between successful negligence case statistics involving women compared to male comparators. i.e. quantifiable evidence, as opposed to makey-uppy, hate-filled misogynistic rhetoric.

The effects of menopause are handwaved away by many GPs who dismiss the impact of it as not a big deal because you know womens thing. Vaginal atrophy euphemistically described as "dryness" when in reality it is a horribly debilitating condition affecting a huge number of menopausal women leading to immensely painful sex, thinned and broken vulval and vaginal skin, UTIs, and in some cases the disappearance of the clitoris. It's treatable with topical oestrogen but many GPs wont prescribe it.

My GP was great and gave me systemic HRT and topical oestrogen but I know many women who have suffered for years because their GPs refuse to accept it's a problem. In fact some of them tell women it's their own fault for not having enough sex "use it or lose it"

Somehow I dont think they'd be saying that to men if they said having sex felt like glass on their dick "you're just not having enough sex mr man, just grit your teeth and get through the pain somehow".

There was an excellent Radio 4 More or Less podcast on this exact subject. It was only about 15 minutes but was really helpful.

well, lets put it this way.

After my c section, I was hurried out the door the following morning when my pain was still not being touched by pain medication and made to feel if I wanted to stay another night it would be very inconvenient.

My step dad has dislocated his knee, they wanted to keep him in for 5 days so he could keep his leg up. 5 days!! When he could keep his leg up at home. He said no, and they gave him a walking stick and strapped his leg up.

People who don't think male privilege in all areas of society is a thing need a real reality check.

I think the way women are treated after given birth is quite shocking actually, I didn't realise I would be rushed out so quickly and in that much pain and wish I had been more prepared.

I studied the history of medicine briefly and this is just part of an ongoing trend throughout history of marginalised groups not being accorded the same approaches in medicine eg sickle cell research; the trials for the original Pill; using prisoners for trials historically; gay people and AIDS etc.

Women can list all the instances they've been dismissed and conveniently conclude that the reason is because they are a woman.

Unless there is scientific evidence that everything comparable, men are on the opposite well.listened to and their needs automatically prioritised, all it is a bunch of women moaning that they had one or more bad experiences with healthcare.

My DS was completely dismissed when he saw the doctor 3 times over 2 years for ongoing outbreaks of coughing and breathlessness. He was told to exercise more. Finally a year later, he was diagnosed with asthma. My DH was told to give up coffee and alcohol when he saw the GP with heart palpitations, turns out that he dies an issue with his heart that require surgery.

Of course, I could tell instances when I was dismissed and claim that it was due to me being female.

I could also talk about the times I was told my concerns were likely unconcerning, yet had tests upon my insistence, that showed that indeed, I didn't suffer from what I feared or anything to worry about.

@dontdisturbmenow Yes, how dare women moan that they have been treated less favourably than men throughout history.

We should jolly well know our place and remain quiet.

@dontdisturbmenow Oh and men cannot give birth so not sure that in my instance it can be anything other than the fact I am a women.

@dontdisturbmenow there is documented evidence. Invisible women has a whole section detailing many, many pieces of research.

On an internet forum people will discuss their own experiences. I'm confused that you feel that's 'just a bunch of women moaning' but go on to give anecdotes of male experience as if that experience proves your point?

My parents have both had very different experiences with their GP when presenting with similar symptoms. Dad referred very quickly and had nothing wrong with him, mum fobbed of with “it’s just your age” but was eventually diagnosed with heart failure requiring a pacemaker/defibrillator over 18 months after her initial GP appointment.

YANBU

Medication is generally tested on young men, and the affects on women are not even in the data to be considered.

You are right about the pill. All this hyperbole about Astra Zeneca clot risk when women just have to accept it. I wonder if the same men shouting about the AZ risk are willing to wear condoms (correctly) or have the snip to protect their partners from the many times worse risk of the contraceptive pill. I suspect very very few.

My personal experience is that doctors just don't know about and are not interested in women's issues. My menstrual cycle very much impacts on the pain I experience in other areas. I've had issues with my shoulder, feet, stomach, all more painful during the week of my period, and these days also worse around the time I ovulate. When asked by medical staff how much pain I am in, the truthful answer isn't that it always feels like a 8/10 on the pain scale.. It could be 9/10 this week but just 6/10 last week, depending on my cycle. But when I've said that doctors have metaphorically closed the file and sent me away.

E.g. I had one consultant who I had seen about gastric issue and when I answered that my pain was worse last week because I had my period he said he knew nothing about that sort of thing and he'd have to send me back to my GP i.e. end of consultation before it had started. As this wasn't the first time I'd had such a response, I said words to the effect, "Oh I didn't realise that the medical degree doesn't cover female anatomy and endocrinology. Is there a colleague in today who has taken those optional modules. He replied that there wasn't a female module and I'd have to go back to my GP for new referral.

I have had a much better experience when going private compared to NHS but sadly not insured at the moment.

Then maybe let's start with this. A lot of talk if facts and evidence.

Let's share scientific evidence to read here. Not articles with no scientific foundations from feminists groups.