Are women treated as second class citizens by the NHS?

[urkidding]

The pill causes clots but a lot of women are supposed to put up with this risk. Good GPs may inform them, it is written in small print in the booklet in their pill packets. The pill causes lots of side effects , depression, weight increase, bloating being some of them. Now it is interesting that the MHRA dealt with the blood clots caused by the Oxford vaccine straight away, yet the pill has hardly changed. I know there are alternatives, but they are less effective. New alternatives can be developed, but the drug companies have no incentive in developing them as the NHS had accepted it in its present form. I very much doubt that men would put up with this sort of medication.

[quote arethereanyleftatall]@tilder
My understanding was that there was a pill for men produced, but because it had side effects, which were about a third as severe as side effects there were for the female pill, it wasn't approved. [/quote]
Because heaven forbid you interfer with men's sexual function.

For women it's about being able to have sex. Not wanting to have sex or being able to orgasm. If that's not sexism, I don't know what is.

[quote arethereanyleftatall]@tilder
My understanding was that there was a pill for men produced, but because it had side effects, which were about a third as severe as side effects there were for the female pill, it wasn't approved. [/quote]
As far as I understand it, the risk-benefit to the person taking the pill is the key thing.

A woman benefits physically from avoiding the risks of pregnancy, whereas a man doesn’t.

I really feel like a second class citizen with my chronic condition tbh. I have stage 4 endometriosis, adenomyosis, endometrial thickness and fibroids which cause pelvic pain, clots, anemia and heavy bleeding. Apparently it is something I just have to manage now because I can't tolerate the coil, Norethisterone of Prostap. It is a shame but as I work n the NHS and have a DP who works in theatres I can see why it is like this.

Yes yes yes 100% we are. I've spent too much time dealing with the NHS over the last year or so I could write an essay on how being a women has put me at a disadvantage. Pain and other symptoms ignored until it has reached a critical and life threatening point, patronised by male consultants, made to feel like a pain in the arse if I dated to ask questions or query things. Blood awful all round.

So the 1/3 of women who take the pill for a non contraceptive purpose should just put up and shut up then?
Again putting meaning in my posts that wasn't there at all to suit the agenda. Sad!

Many people, women and men have to put up with unwanted side effects from drugs do to treatment. Side effects from steroids are a thousand time worse than that of the pull yet many people have no choice but to take them.

Why not focusing on alternatives for these?

Years ago my husband and I were ill with the same thing. Went to the same doctor and my husband was prescribed medication, because he was the breadwinner and I wasn't. I was only home looking after two young children.

I can't get over the incontinence issues in the UK. Look at France and their post birth physio.

At least women have the pill. Men don't have any options for hormonal contraception. It's either vasectomy or condom. No coil no pill no implant so no this is just another instance of us making our something is misogyny when it isn't or victim playing. As it stands most of the az blood clots were in women anyway so the mhra was looking out and acted on something that affects women more.

My understanding was that there was a pill for men produced, but because it had side effects, which were about a third as severe as side effects there were for the female pill, it wasn't approved
Absolute nonsense!

It is still being developed. The main concern is the impact on sperm production. Don't think many women keen to become mum would be happy with their partner being in the name pill as it currently stands.

@dontdisturbmenow

So the 1/3 of women who take the pill for a non contraceptive purpose should just put up and shut up then? Again putting meaning in my posts that wasn't there at all to suit the agenda. Sad!

Many people, women and men have to put up with unwanted side effects from drugs do to treatment. Side effects from steroids are a thousand time worse than that of the pull yet many people have no choice but to take them.

Why not focusing on alternatives for these?

Because steroids are far less commonly prescribed for long term use?

Whereas a pretty hefty percentage of otherwise healthy women take oral contraceptives for the majority of their reproductive life?

Because steroids are far less commonly prescribed for long term use?
Then the use of contraception for other means than contraception as was stated in the response to my post?

I don't think so!

Yes. 100%.

It's one reason why I left the NHS to retrain as a teacher after working some years in women's healthcare. I have so many examples. I didn't have the energy to fight a losing battle anymore. I put on record it's because I couldn't bear the disparity in healthcare for women and how dehumanising it is and the culture needs to change. That piece of info will be in a HR file somewhere never to be read. But it was actually affecting my mental health, seeing women mistreated, standing up for them and being shot down by Matrons.

Complaints against me were always from men and along the lines of "I didn't like that, when I said "what am I suppose to do with my kids" when my wife came in for emergency surgery and would be hospitalised for at least 2 days, James replied "you could look after them?"'...or "James wouldn't allow my wife to be discharged early when I was struggling at home" when men wanted their wives, who were in no fit state to leave, to come home and put a wash on. I'd actually be in meetings getting told how I was wrong to say these things! People do NOT like women who speak out.

I was chatting to an acquaintance at the weekend who said that her MIL and FIL ended up in the delivery suite while she gave birth, against her wishes. They were allowed to just waltz in, the midwife allowed it. And he had a bad back and there was nowhere to sit so the midwife suggested he have a seat in the corner of the room. No one asked the actual patient who was vulnerable, half naked and in pain, if this was ok. She was too nervous to speak out. Female patients don't have a voice. This is just one example in one area of healthcare among many of how women are dehumanised. I hate it, I really do.

Also could we maybe once have one thread where someone doesn't pip up "what about the menz". This thread is NOT about men - it's about women. Start your own thread if you think men have shit healthcare.

Thank you for recognising it James.
That means something.

In Invisible Women it says women have worse outcomes after surgery than men and its believed to be because they are less able to rest post surgery due to domestic labour responsibilities.

I mean fuck that, my husband is just as capable as me and wouldn't dream of risking my health for the sake of looking after the kids. It's just so deeply engrained in society that women are second class. Every now and then you notice the full extent of it and it's mind blowing.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows that's so awful!

I got very frustrated last year when I had surgery, and beforehand the nurse was taking to me about recovery etc. She knew I was married but was asking if I'd made arrangements for childcare and housework whilst I recovered....as if my DH, a grown man, couldn't possibly cope with such things . The booklet they gave me with information about recovery made so much reference to housework as well. By week 2 you should be able to do some light dusting, by week 4 you can get back to hoovering. Because as women that's all we're good for! Bet the men's booklets don't talk about housework grumbles

@lljkk

There are drugs for men-only with risks of unpleasant side effects.

Men generally have much worse health outcomes for any of the sex-shared possible health outcomes. Men have a good case for saying their health needs are too ignored given they carry a larger burden of morbidity & mortality.

I work in the NHS and I’d agree with that.

@wonderstuff I can't tell you how many times we'd have women coming to our ward because they'd had a c-section or operations and then over exerted themselves at home and either burst their stitches or got an infection. She was always flagged by a useless shit of a man who was more concerned about the fact he'd have to do the school run than he was that his wife was in hospital.

Don't get me wrong we also got very good men who did everything a good partner should do. But more and more I was seeing either men who cared very little for their partners well-being and just wanted her home, or - particularly in the postnatal ward - thought he was equal to his partner in terms of being there. Like the mere thought they were, for once, not top dog, couldn't compute. Barely a shift went by when I wasn't having to tell some bloke "actually that food is for the patients" when they went to get their dinner in the communal area (that's another thing, postnatal is the ONLY place in the hospital where I worked where you had to get your own meals, disgraceful). One guy complained because, when a new mum who'd had a difficult experience took a long time to get to the food trolley and there was nothing left for her, I went to investigate why as there was plenty to go round, and I took several (untouched and still in their boxes) sandwiches off men so she could have some. One guy complained and PALS actually apologised to him the ward's business manager (useless role) actually said I needed to "get off the feminist bandwagon". I think it was the next week I handed my notice in after being told that. Because I thought women who'd just given birth and gone through the most painful and exhausting experience of their lives, deserved to eat before a partner who could have taken himself down to the cafe.

I'm not sure if other NHS trusts are the same but in ours we were hugely encouraged to put a positive spin on things for CQC inspectors. And when your business manager or matron is nearby it's hard to speak up without repercussions, though I did get a chance to speak to inspectors privately. But there was definitely a culture of "nothing to see here, everything's fine, honest!" 🙄 shit care speaks for itself though - where I was, the postnatal ward and the gynae ward were joined by a non-secure door which was an issue we kept raising and getting told "it's fine nothing to worry about. during an inspection an elderley patient confused trying to find the toilet wandered into a bay for mother's and babies. The repercussions: all gynae staff bollocked for not noticing she got up (probably because we'd been ordered to 'tidy up the posters' rather than care for patients). What did not happen: a secure door was not installed.

Sorry for all the ranting - can you tell it's a sore point

Yes. I agree.
I have stage 4 endometriosis, adenomyosis, pcos. Took 25 years form First GP appointment to diagnosis. Huge number of GP appts, A and E visits, infertility treatment

Had to go private as was sent away following scan saying maybe there was some signs of endo but nothing to worry about get a mirena. Despite me sobbing about the pain I was in.

Went privately and expected to get a diagnosis and listened to, which I did but the old style chauvinist consultant told me that I had some endometriosis, maybe stage 1 or 2 (didn’t bother to read the MRI which suggested far worse with anatomical distortions and severe fibrosis).. and then asked if I wanted to have another baby anytime to reduce symptoms (I have three and actually also had a haemorrhage and emergency surgery following a MC.. not something I want to risk again) - he suggested my husbands knee op would’ve been far worse than my endo surgery (complete crap as it turned out, took me 8 months to recover). Then wanted me to have GnRH injections to make his surgery job easier. I refused and left him.

Went on to find a brilliant surgeon. He was far more skilled and eventually operated and removed endo from about 10 different locations including ureters and diaphragm.

Now I am diagnosed with POTS and MCAS. Who knows whether this was all made worse with all the delays to diagnosis. Is suspect it was to be honest.

With gynaecology conditions I think they aren’t taken seriously until it impacts your ability to have children.

@Jamesmidddletonsmarshmallow. That’s more the partners of female patients then the actual NHS at fault isn’t it. They’re the ones wanting their partners at home for domestic duties, the NHS isn’t sending women home to do the hoovering.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows it sounds awful and I've heard so many stories of the NHS being a crap place to work, Adam Kay's book is shocking.

I've personally had excellent care from my local gyne team, feel very lucky because I realise I'm in an area with particularly good hospital. Certainly on maternity my experience was meals came to my bed. Just as well I could barely move after giving birth.

I have had a GP fob me off about pill side effects which resulted in serious depression, I have been offered antidepressants when I requested an adhd assessment, told we won't fund that but here have these drugs instead.

My mother had a full hysterectomy being told that cysts o her ovaries looked sinister, they were benign and the hysterectomy had very significant impact on her, she feels it was unnecessary.

I think that the issue is not the NHS, although they could clearly do more, but wider society. I don't think we've made much progress on improving gender equality in the last 20 years, in fact I think in some ways it's got worse.

[quote Gingerwhinger0]@Jamesmidddletonsmarshmallow. That’s more the partners of female patients then the actual NHS at fault isn’t it. They’re the ones wanting their partners at home for domestic duties, the NHS isn’t sending women home to do the hoovering.[/quote]
Yes and no - too few HCPs actually put up a fight for women who are being dragged home to do the dishes 12 hours post c-section. There's definitely a type of HCP who feels sorry for these men and thinks any man who simply turns up is a great partner. It's about culture - and the culture is to care less for women than others. Another example is men overstaying their welcome in the postnatal ward - where I worked kicking out time was 9pm. Many partners would stay til 10pm and onwards, and I often felt I was the only one to actually go in and boot them out. Other HCPs would (not incorrectly) claim they would only get abuse if they did it - but that's not an excuse not to protect women, and it wouldn't be tolerated in elderley care wards for example

I think that the issue is not the NHS, although they could clearly do more, but wider society. I don't think we've made much progress on improving gender equality in the last 20 years, in fact I think in some ways it's got worse.

Absolutely - the NHS is no different to anywhere else really, it's just part of a culture that fails women constantly.

Yes. I have a rare breathing condition (idiopathic subglottic stenosis) Basically lungs fine but airways blocks for no known reason. 99% suffers women and often starts in 30s or 40s. Oxygen sats ok as our bodies adapt. I was diagnosed relatively quickly within months but I’m on a Facebook group and so many women dismissed as overweight, unfit, asthma, in your head, anxiety often for years.