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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sick of the double standards with erasing women

86 replies

Wiiseoldelf · 18/04/2021 06:23

So I woke up at 4 this morning after a bad dream and fell down a rabbit hole in my phone.

An article on Facebook about a chainsaws original use (childbirth if anyone is wondering) led me to think about my births and then c sections in general.

What's the history of a c-section?

Anyway this led me to Wikipedia and this article en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarean_section

Pregnant person is the terminology throughout. We're fucking women. Only women have uterus' that can be sliced open. I then had a look at the closest male equivalent, vasectomy I thought, and as expected, men, male, man.

Just ranting somewhere I know some people will understand

OP posts:
BarbaraofSeville · 18/04/2021 06:31

Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Change it back.

Although, if you word search women/woman and person, it's 51 for the former and 45 for the latter, so a curious mix but I haven't read through to see the context, some of the people uses may be actually referring to both sexes, not specifically about women.

Mummy1608 · 18/04/2021 06:31

Yanbu at all. But remember Wikipedia can be edited by anyone out there, with their own silly agenda, not a medical professional or policy maker

RobertaSloth · 18/04/2021 06:34

I don’t understand tbh. I’m a person, I was pregnant, I had a c-section. It really just doesn’t bother me in the slightest if language is inclusive of trans men 🤷🏻‍♀️

Sciurus83 · 18/04/2021 06:46

@RobertaSloth high five me too! I thought pregnant people was a bit clunky at first but found myself using it, it rolls off really nicely actually.

Wiiseoldelf · 18/04/2021 06:49

@robertasloth it's not about excluding trans men though it's about erasing women and that's something we should all care about.

To be inclusive I think 'women and other pregnant people' should be acceptable.

Good point about changing it back, I'll create an account later.

OP posts:
Dozer · 18/04/2021 06:49

Annoying. It’s not at all ‘inclusive’: it excludes women.

sofato5miles · 18/04/2021 07:00

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Ytrigging · 18/04/2021 07:12

I agree with you that it's dehumanising. Women and other pregnant people would be a much better way of phrasing it.
As an aside, I just looked as the vasectomies page and it seems to say "people with a penis" most of the time and occasionally "penis-havers".

Imreaaaaady · 18/04/2021 07:19

IDGAF. These posts piss me off no end because they assume that all women feel this way. I don't feel erased. I don't care. It's words on a page.

SylvieHortensis · 18/04/2021 07:23

IDGAF. These posts piss me off no end because they assume that all women feel this way. I don't feel erased. I don't care. It's words on a page

It really isn't. Just you wait.

starrynight21 · 18/04/2021 07:25

@Imreaaaaady

IDGAF. These posts piss me off no end because they assume that all women feel this way. I don't feel erased. I don't care. It's words on a page.
^^ This. Someone wrote something on Wikipedia. I'm a woman and I couldn't care less. I don't feel erased because of one person's comment on a web page.
moimichme · 18/04/2021 07:28

@Ytrigging

I agree with you that it's dehumanising. Women and other pregnant people would be a much better way of phrasing it. As an aside, I just looked as the vasectomies page and it seems to say "people with a penis" most of the time and occasionally "penis-havers".
Surely this phrase is also to do with not offending transwomen? They may not have had medical treatment but 'identify' as female, so don't want anyone to invalidate their tightly held identity through making an explicit linguistic link between being male, or men, and having a penis?
Rubyupbeat · 18/04/2021 07:31

I so agree with you here.
There was a phase a few months ago, with adverts declaring 'it's not only women who have periods' oh come, yes it is. You have to have ovaries and a uterus for menstruation. If you decide to change sex to male, but hold on to your womanly parts, sorry, you are a woman.
Which leads to the documentaries of 'men' giving birth and 'chest feeding' it's a pile of crap, but if we say the wrong thing, slip up and say she instead of he, we have a lynch mob after us.

Wiiseoldelf · 18/04/2021 07:52

Why would you not care?

We're on a slippery slope to losing rights that, from a historical perspective, are only recently acquired.

I don't want my daughter to grow up in a world where there could be predatory men mascarading as women in our changing rooms, shelters, or prisons.

I will clarify before being labelled as a bigot I am not talking about trans people, I am talking about men who identify as male taking advantage of the gaps in the system this fear of offending a minority will create.

Touching on a pp, I don't understand the agenda either. If you want to be a woman, go for it, but join our ranks not try to ruin what we've achieved over the last 100 years. If you identify as female then you should take the time to learn what that means and listen to the people who have lived that experience - women.

OP posts:
tinierclanger · 18/04/2021 08:00

You could say “women and other pregnant people”, or you could just say “pregnant people”, which includes everyone pregnant, regardless of what gender they identify with. Seems fine to me, no erasure involved, just includes people whose biological sex is female but are living as men.

Can’t see how this relates to your concerns about predatory men masquerading as women, as none of them will be pregnant.

JocastaNu · 18/04/2021 08:06

It's been edited. How long do we think it will be before some wokal edits it back?

Wiiseoldelf · 18/04/2021 08:08

Sorry I should have added my frustration stems from an accumulation of things, some examples of which have been stated by other pp, but this just irritated me this morning.

Self identification is one of my main concerns. I feel that by accepting these subtle changes in language, such as the article I linked, then we are allowing ourselves to be pushed further down the line towards erasure of the identity of an adult human female as we know it. We should be protective of our rights.

While I agree yes all men and women are collectively people, men don't have anything to lose being identified as people. Women do.

OP posts:
LigPatin · 18/04/2021 08:08

@Imreaaaaady

IDGAF. These posts piss me off no end because they assume that all women feel this way. I don't feel erased. I don't care. It's words on a page.
"Nothing changes instantaneously: in a gradually heating bathtub you'd be boiled to death before you knew it."

Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid's Tale

Wiiseoldelf · 18/04/2021 08:14

Exactly @LigPatin

OP posts:
ShesMadeATwatOfMePam · 18/04/2021 08:20

Don't you have bigger things to worry about than the language used on the Wikipedia entry for chainsaws?

Biscuitsanddoombar · 18/04/2021 08:21

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

Biscuitsanddoombar · 18/04/2021 08:24

It’s only a few weeks ago that the government had to be forced to use the word ‘mother’ in a law about maternity rights

If something isn’t defined in law it ceases to have any legal meaning and from then on in changing things becomes so much easier. If the definition of women includes men then there are no women’s rights/spaces/groups/prizes/programmes or sports

Signalbox · 18/04/2021 08:29

@RobertaSloth

I don’t understand tbh. I’m a person, I was pregnant, I had a c-section. It really just doesn’t bother me in the slightest if language is inclusive of trans men 🤷🏻‍♀️
Don't you ever wonder why men's health information isn't changed to be inclusive of trans women? Why is it only female people who are referred to by their body parts and bodily functions and not male people? If it was about inclusion it would be consistent.
EnidSpyton · 18/04/2021 08:33

Women are always being asked to accommodate the needs of others before their own. To be quiet and listen. To stand aside and make space. To be kind. To be inclusive.

This is how the erasure of women from society has always happened and will continue to happen. The same demands are not made of men.

The current push to make the world inclusive for the tiny number of people who choose to live their lives as the opposite gender (not sex, because biological sex cannot be changed) is fuelled by misogyny, and the fact that many women don’t recognise this is disturbing.

Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Women are discriminated against in society due to our sex.

We bear children.

We can be penetrated by a penis.

We have periods.

We are physically lighter and smaller than men.

These sex based biological differences are the cornerstone of why we are ‘the second sex’ despite the fact that we’re the majority of the world population.

Erasing sex based language and focusing on our identities being based on gender (social construct) rather than sex (biology) is dangerous because it is our biology that is the root of our oppression as women. Downplaying that by suggesting we can all choose to be whoever we want to be opens the door for the realities of women’s sex based oppression to be dismissed, denied and erased.

Trans women are not women. They can never be women, because you cannot change your biological sex. Claiming that you are a woman because you have changed your gender identity is misogyny because it suggests that the experience of being a woman is nothing but a social construct. It isn’t. Transwomen should have every right to live their lives as they wish safely and without discrimination. I am
not suggesting anything otherwise. But this right does not give them the right to erase women and our sex based rights and needs in the process.

So many women have internalised the patriarchy to the point where they genuinely believe that this issue doesn’t threaten them, and this is truly worrying. We need to stand up, speak out and protect ourselves. If the word woman becomes erased, the legal protections designed to protect women are erased. And if you think this is dramatic or illogical or ridiculous, I suggest you wake up and take a good look around you. I received a cervical screening leaflet yesterday where more space was spent explaining how trans people could access services than how women could. And yet women are over 50% of the population...and trans? I can’t imagine it’s more than 1%. The erasure is already happening and I’m afraid this is just the beginning.

Naunet · 18/04/2021 08:34

IDGAF. These posts piss me off no end because they assume that all women feel this way. I don't feel erased. I don't care. It's words on a page

Yeah, it’s just words on a page, until it’s not. It’s male bodied rapists in women’s prisons, it’s males in women’s sport, it’s women losing the language which describes them. But who cares? Let’s get some male approval and cheer on our erasure 🙄

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