To be sick of the double standards with erasing women

[Wiiseoldelf]

So I woke up at 4 this morning after a bad dream and fell down a rabbit hole in my phone.

An article on Facebook about a chainsaws original use (childbirth if anyone is wondering) led me to think about my births and then c sections in general.

What's the history of a c-section?

Anyway this led me to Wikipedia and this article en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarean_section

Pregnant person is the terminology throughout. We're fucking women. Only women have uterus' that can be sliced open. I then had a look at the closest male equivalent, vasectomy I thought, and as expected, men, male, man.

Just ranting somewhere I know some people will understand

@EnidSpyton I feel you are much more eloquent than me. Thank you for taking the time to outline that

@EnidSpyton excellent post, thank you for explaining that so well. I feel I often don't get the full argument across in a way that you just did!

I can't say pregnant people with a straight face.

@RobertaSloth

I don’t understand tbh. I’m a person, I was pregnant, I had a c-section. It really just doesn’t bother me in the slightest if language is inclusive of trans men 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m with you. I can’t understand this hatred of trans men and women. I’ve met many and believe me it’s not a phase, fad or attempt to walk into women’s loos. I’m a CIS woman, and not at all erased by trans women and the fight for their rights. I can’t see how anyone is? 🤷‍♀️

@EnidSpyton

Women are always being asked to accommodate the needs of others before their own. To be quiet and listen. To stand aside and make space. To be kind. To be inclusive.

This is how the erasure of women from society has always happened and will continue to happen. The same demands are not made of men.

The current push to make the world inclusive for the tiny number of people who choose to live their lives as the opposite gender (not sex, because biological sex cannot be changed) is fuelled by misogyny, and the fact that many women don’t recognise this is disturbing.

Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Women are discriminated against in society due to our sex.

We bear children.

We can be penetrated by a penis.

We have periods.

We are physically lighter and smaller than men.

These sex based biological differences are the cornerstone of why we are ‘the second sex’ despite the fact that we’re the majority of the world population.

Erasing sex based language and focusing on our identities being based on gender (social construct) rather than sex (biology) is dangerous because it is our biology that is the root of our oppression as women. Downplaying that by suggesting we can all choose to be whoever we want to be opens the door for the realities of women’s sex based oppression to be dismissed, denied and erased.

Trans women are not women. They can never be women, because you cannot change your biological sex. Claiming that you are a woman because you have changed your gender identity is misogyny because it suggests that the experience of being a woman is nothing but a social construct. It isn’t. Transwomen should have every right to live their lives as they wish safely and without discrimination. I am
not suggesting anything otherwise. But this right does not give them the right to erase women and our sex based rights and needs in the process.

So many women have internalised the patriarchy to the point where they genuinely believe that this issue doesn’t threaten them, and this is truly worrying. We need to stand up, speak out and protect ourselves. If the word woman becomes erased, the legal protections designed to protect women are erased. And if you think this is dramatic or illogical or ridiculous, I suggest you wake up and take a good look around you. I received a cervical screening leaflet yesterday where more space was spent explaining how trans people could access services than how women could. And yet women are over 50% of the population...and trans? I can’t imagine it’s more than 1%. The erasure is already happening and I’m afraid this is just the beginning.

Excellent post.

My recent similar feeling from the news is a couple of stories about women denied hysterectomy, one who was 30 and had dc already and one who was mid 20s and had severe endometriosis and suffered greatly. Yet had they declared that they were trans the NHS would gladly destroy their fertility. Women are well and truly disrespectful by the medical industry :

More likely to be ignored
Less likely to have investigations - just left on pain killers or told it is in your head
Patronised
Medical problems that are unique to women seem to not move on in medical understanding - eg pcos, endo, lipodema etc - firmly beleive that if these were men's issues they would have identified actual cures and treatment and developed better diagnosis systems.
Everything around childbirth

Great concise post @EnidSpyton

I’m with you. I can’t understand this hatred of trans men and women

Nice over dramatics there. No one has said they hate trans people.

As well as the points raised in @EnidSpyton 's excellent post, I think there is a real concern when health information is not clear, concise and honest. High numbers of women with lower levels of literacy and learning disabilities have much poorer health outcomes than those without - clear communication is an important factor in public health messaging reaching and being understood by the people who are being targeted...in this instance women.

@Joeblack066 there is no hatred.

Saying that women have sex based rights and needs is not hatred.

Trans people saying as such is misogyny.

I am happy for people to live their lives as they wish and to have the right to live their lives as they wish - as long as in doing so they do not take away the rights of others.

The ultra vocal transwomen are women supporters (who do not represent all trans people, I might add) are misogynists, pure and simple. The only hatred I see in this debate comes from them, towards women.

It's all about women being nice. When do you ever hear people say, "Oi men, try to be a bit kinder, remember some men have babies,"

@EnidSpyton, I agree with you totally and you make an excellent point about cervical screening. Cervical screening needs to be made much better for women. Many of us have been sexually abused, assaulted, raped, had mismanaged and traumatic births, making cervical screening a horrendous experience. This is where work needs to be done, not in explaining that cervical screening requires you to have a cervix.

I know home swabs are being posited, but why has it taken so long? The medical profession hate women that don't 'behave' regardless of their experiences. Much of the trans agenda seems to be a section of trans women complaining to authorities that women aren't behaving. They are only too happy to legislate to control these naughty women.

Symphysiotomies occured in Ireland until 1987 as a ‘cesarian alternative’ recommended by the catholic church. That’s the real scandal.

@BarbaraofSeville

Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Change it back.

Although, if you word search women/woman and person, it's 51 for the former and 45 for the latter, so a curious mix but I haven't read through to see the context, some of the people uses may be actually referring to both sexes, not specifically about women.

That may be because someone started changing it back at 5:21am this morning and finished at 6:41 so you saw it half way through.

The edit history also tells me that the changes to "pregnant person" were made at 19:07 on the 14th following an edit war.

On the vasectomy page someone edited the entry to replace "men" with "penis-havers" at 6:10am but a bot reverted it straight back. Why the bot didn't pick up the similar edit on the C-sec page, I've no idea.

@Herdwicklambs yes to everything you said

@Firsttimegreyhoundmum - thanks very much.

I agree entirely. If men were subject to cervical screening, the home HPV swab would have been brought in 20 years ago. The lack of urgency in rolling out this self administered, far less invasive procedure is a perfect example of misogyny in action in our healthcare system.

Cervical screening is, let's face it, a barbaric and outdated procedure. I was so traumatised by my first screening ten years ago that I have never been back for another. I was in so much pain that I couldn't walk for two days afterwards, and I was dismissed and told I was 'silly' by the (male) doctor for making 'such a fuss' when I was crying in agony as he tried to force a speculum that was clearly far too big into my cervix.

But apparently it's far more important to spend time, money and energy on producing a new NHS cervical screening leaflet to be sent out, explaining to transwomen that they don't need a cervical screening because they don't have a cervix (if you haven't received it yet, yes, this is what it says, on the first page), than it is to roll out a screening service that doesn't necessitate a woman being placed in a position where she experiences pain and trauma undergoing what, for most, is an entirely unnecessary and avoidable procedure.

I am disappointed that 9% of those who voted disagree with the OP.

For the few here who think it doesn’t matter/ they don’t mind or that none of this is an issue, please consider why it IS an issue for the rest of us. Our biology as women /females /people with xx chromosomes does define many of our needs and to obscure this because of a few other peoples wants can be dangerous.

peak it is interestingly the same percentage on many of the similar polls here. I would like to think that sometimes minds can be swayed with suitable examples.

It’s not the inclusivity that bothers me. I’m all for inclusivity.

It’s the fact that woman has become a dirty, unspeakable word that bothers me. Find a way to be inclusive, sure, but not at the expense of women.

It’s the fact that woman has become a dirty, unspeakable word that bothers me. Find a way to be inclusive, sure, but not at the expense of women

This.

I'll worry about erasure when I start to disappear.

Surely it's not in the spirit of feminism to vilify those women who don't feel it's a problem?

I don't plan on going to jail so that won't be an issue...

I'm new to this discussion and I'm trying to understand - both sides. I definitely have a bias which I am aware of but I feel very uneducated. Forgive this question. It is not meant to offend anyone. Pregnant person...can I ask, is the intention here not to offend trans men (born biologically female)? If you are a man (that was born into the wrong body which I 100% accept and have no issue with), why are you pregnant and carrying a baby which is a fundamental part of being a biologically born female. Surely that would remind you of being born female which is something that you have made a conscientious decision to move away from as you feel like and identify as male.
Sorry that was a very clunky way of asking.

@LadyGAgain

I'm new to this discussion and I'm trying to understand - both sides. I definitely have a bias which I am aware of but I feel very uneducated. Forgive this question. It is not meant to offend anyone. Pregnant person...can I ask, is the intention here not to offend trans men (born biologically female)? If you are a man (that was born into the wrong body which I 100% accept and have no issue with), why are you pregnant and carrying a baby which is a fundamental part of being a biologically born female. Surely that would remind you of being born female which is something that you have made a conscientious decision to move away from as you feel like and identify as male. Sorry that was a very clunky way of asking.

I think it’s a bit of trying not to offend trans men because they may be pregnant and not identify as a woman. I think it’s also not to offend trans women by implying a link between a female reproductive system and being a woman.

I don’t have an issue with trans men having a baby if they want to, their body their choice, but I can’t answer your question because I agree it must be a very firm reminder of their female reproductive system.

@Imreaaaaady

I'll worry about erasure when I start to disappear.

Surely it's not in the spirit of feminism to vilify those women who don't feel it's a problem?

I don't plan on going to jail so that won't be an issue...

You’ll get no vilification from me but I do think your underplaying a potential issue.

Women and others who are pregnant is inclusive but retains the link between being a woman and being pregnant. I think that’s very important. If we can no longer say that pregnant and reproductive rights are women’s issues, then it legitimises men being more involved and making decisions about abortion etc without the input of women.

It’s also offensive to those of us for whom our biology is fundamental to being a woman. I want to be respectful of those for whom their experience of being a woman is a matter of identity not sex. But in return I want them to be respectful of the fact that for me, it’s entirely sex based. And that means e.g. not trying to remove the link between womanhood and pregnant.