To be sick of the double standards with erasing women

[Wiiseoldelf]

So I woke up at 4 this morning after a bad dream and fell down a rabbit hole in my phone.

An article on Facebook about a chainsaws original use (childbirth if anyone is wondering) led me to think about my births and then c sections in general.

What's the history of a c-section?

Anyway this led me to Wikipedia and this article en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarean_section

Pregnant person is the terminology throughout. We're fucking women. Only women have uterus' that can be sliced open. I then had a look at the closest male equivalent, vasectomy I thought, and as expected, men, male, man.

Just ranting somewhere I know some people will understand

It’s enraging. Get a Wikipedia account and change it back.

Only women have c sections. No man in history has ever had a c section!

If you are a man (that was born into the wrong body which I 100% accept and have no issue with), why are you pregnant and carrying a baby which is a fundamental part of being a biologically born female.

As with so many questions in the debate, this is never answered. I was surprised the first time I heard about a pregnant transman, I have several trans friends and acquaintances and the way they describe their experience of gender dysphoria leads me to believe pregnancy would be quite a distressing experience for a female who identifies as a man.

Perhaps they have a desire to have a child biologically and thats the most straightforward way?
I don't suppose it really matters why just that some transmen are having babies and therefore it makes sense that language is inclusive of them.

You can’t solve oppression against certain groups if you don’t identify those groups clearly.

Sexism is sex based. Hence it is necessary to continue to have words that describe a person born with lady bits and a person born with man bits.

@RobertaSloth

I don’t understand tbh. I’m a person, I was pregnant, I had a c-section. It really just doesn’t bother me in the slightest if language is inclusive of trans men 🤷🏻‍♀️

Same - I was pregnant, still a woman - if it includes terminology for trans men too then fine.

YABU

Take the transphobia back to the feminism boards.

@everybodysang

YABU

Take the transphobia back to the feminism boards.

Please define transphobia as you see it and explain where you see this evidenced in the OP's post.

I can't see anything that could be defined as 'transphobia' in her post. What I see is her objecting to the word people being used instead of women. What's transphobic about wishing to be referred to by the linguistic term that describes your specific biological reality?

Anyone who thinks it's transphobic for a woman to wish to be referred to as a woman is a misogynist.

Ha. No. I'm not going to change your mind, you're most definitely not going to change mine, so why not let this play out on the feminism boards so those of us who hate this side of MM can mute it?

@everybodysang

Ha. No. I'm not going to change your mind, you're most definitely not going to change mine, so why not let this play out on the feminism boards so those of us who hate this side of MM can mute it?

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to understand your mind.

Please, I would genuinely like to understand - what is transphobic about the OP's post?

I would genuinely like to understand from someone who clearly has a different view on the issue to me, why a woman objecting to the term 'people' being used instead of 'women' to describe sex-based female functions can be considered 'transphobic'.

Without attempting to understand one another we're never going to get anywhere. The constant shutting down of any discussion with the cry of 'that's transphobic!' when a woman dares to say anything that suggests a discomfort with how trans-ideology or semiotics is erasing women's sex based rights and needs, is a real barrier to creating any type of understanding. It seems to be - in my view - merely used as a blanket term to tell women to put up and shut up, without offering any nuanced debate or response to the very real concerns women have about their erasure from public spaces and public discourse as a result of the extreme trans rights lobby. Since when did the needs of so few have the right to outweigh the rights of so many? Oh yes - when the so few are men, and the so many, women. It has been ever thus.

I don't know if I'm being stupid but that wiki article is full of female specific anatomy and surely by saying "pregnant people" you're only including biological women that don't identify as such because as pointed out previously biological men can't actually have children

@Chanjer you're not being stupid, you perhaps just don't realise the implications of referring to women as people in order to appease those who do not identify as their biological sex.

By ceasing to use the word woman, we cease to have the means to define and express the very real sex-based differences between men and women that are the cause of women's oppression. If I am fired from my job because I'm pregnant, I can't claim sex-based discrimination if the sex-based definition of a woman no longer exists in legal documentation.

Gender neutral language is perfectly fine and actually a positive in many situations, especially where societal constructs have led to lazy stereotypes about men's roles and women's roles. Making spaces inclusive of everyone and referring to 'people' rather than 'men' and 'women' is great in a wider social context where women can often feel excluded from certain arenas, i.e. in the workplace and in politics.

However, when it comes to our biological functions - we need to be able to use the term woman to define the functions that are unique to women and that are often the cause of our oppression. PEOPLE don't get pregnant. WOMEN do. If anyone could get pregnant, pregnancy wouldn't have been used as a weapon to control and oppress women since time immemorial. Trying to erase that reality with gender neutral terms perpetuates the denial of sex-based oppression that prevents women from being able to achieve equality.

I appreciate your polite response @EnidSpyton but it's glaringly, stunningly obvious to me and if it isn't to you then there isn't any way I am going to change your mind and it's just not something I am going to invest time in. I absolutely understand your comments and similar arguments, I just fundamentally disagree and I am happy with that.

@everybodysang

I appreciate your polite response *@EnidSpyton* but it's glaringly, stunningly obvious to me and if it isn't to you then there isn't any way I am going to change your mind and it's just not something I am going to invest time in. I absolutely understand your comments and similar arguments, I just fundamentally disagree and I am happy with that.

Is the response you would give that any link between female reproductive systems and being a woman is transphobic as it suggests that anatomy is a relevant factor in determining womanhood?

The thing is with responses like yours is that no one is willing to actually engage with defending the arguments supposedly in favour of trans rights. To me it seems that’s because the arguments simply don’t stand up to scrutiny.

I believe in equality. Equality for everyone - including trans people, including natal women. I cannot see how refusing to acknowledge sex as an axis of oppression can possibly lead to equality. I’ve been asking for years and no one has been willing to try to answer.

*EnidSpyton

Women are always being asked to accommodate the needs of others before their own. To be quiet and listen. To stand aside and make space. To be kind. To be inclusive.

This is how the erasure of women from society has always happened and will continue to happen. The same demands are not made of men.

The current push to make the world inclusive for the tiny number of people who choose to live their lives as the opposite gender (not sex, because biological sex cannot be changed) is fuelled by misogyny, and the fact that many women don’t recognise this is disturbing.

Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Women are discriminated against in society due to our sex.

We bear children.

We can be penetrated by a penis.

We have periods.

We are physically lighter and smaller than men.

These sex based biological differences are the cornerstone of why we are ‘the second sex’ despite the fact that we’re the majority of the world population.

Erasing sex based language and focusing on our identities being based on gender (social construct) rather than sex (biology) is dangerous because it is our biology that is the root of our oppression as women. Downplaying that by suggesting we can all choose to be whoever we want to be opens the door for the realities of women’s sex based oppression to be dismissed, denied and erased.

Trans women are not women. They can never be women, because you cannot change your biological sex. Claiming that you are a woman because you have changed your gender identity is misogyny because it suggests that the experience of being a woman is nothing but a social construct. It isn’t. Transwomen should have every right to live their lives as they wish safely and without discrimination. I am
not suggesting anything otherwise. But this right does not give them the right to erase women and our sex based rights and needs in the process.

So many women have internalised the patriarchy to the point where they genuinely believe that this issue doesn’t threaten them, and this is truly worrying. We need to stand up, speak out and protect ourselves. If the word woman becomes erased, the legal protections designed to protect women are erased. And if you think this is dramatic or illogical or ridiculous, I suggest you wake up and take a good look around you. I received a cervical screening leaflet yesterday where more space was spent explaining how trans people could access services than how women could. And yet women are over 50% of the population...and trans? I can’t imagine it’s more than 1%. The erasure is already happening and I’m afraid this is just the beginning.*

This needed repeating. What an amazing post!!

In what possible way is a pregnant transman 'living as a man'?

Why is it so triggering to be referred to as a woman, yet apparently not triggering to undergo pregnancy and childbirth, which are exclusively female processes?

I'm sorry, but someone who chooses to go through pregnancy and childbirth should lose any expectation that they will be referred to as a man.

@everybodysang please quote me on my transphobia, I'm struggling to see it. Oh wait, it's not there.

As I said if a man wants to become a woman then I wish them all the best, I would expect that they've thoroughly researched what it means to be female and identify with our shared history. E.g. millenia of rape, subservience and slavery. If a woman wants to become a man I would also wish them all the best, no one should suffer if they feel trapped in the wrong body. Their body their decision just as I identify as an adult human female and won't be silenced over that.

I can see how some women view it as benign, it's not insulting or threatening. We're not being called bitches or sluts, but this is actually worse.

I started the thread because I'm used to seeing it in medical documents ( I'm fairly sure most doctors would agree sex can't be changed though), I'm used to seeing major corporations like m&s, body shop, companies that sell tampons etc. choosing to put the safety of women aside or not use the word woman at all. I'm used to the threats and abuse on twitter, I'm used to people like j.k. who speak out being 'cancelled' and I'm used to peers in the house of Lords being labelled bigots for defending our rights.

For some reason I was surprised to see this slow and systematic erasure had infiltrated a random.encyclopedic article on wikipedia.

If you don't have concerns about the impact this could have on women's rights please educate yourself, it's not transphobic to disagree with misogyny.

The link relates to a woman being sexually assaulted in prison by a trans women. The TW had a history of sexually assaulting women yet was housed in a women's prison

As I said if a man wants to become a woman then I wish them all the best, I would expect that they've thoroughly researched what it means to be female and identify with our shared history. E.g. millenia of rape, subservience and slavery.

At a guess it's the shoehorning in of biological males that identify as women into a conversation about exclusively female processes and biological functions. It's a valid conversation but a separate one to this issue

I don't agree that self identification makes people any less male or female btw and am generally opposed to the idea of men being able to do this. I'm less concerned about women doing it because there isn't the same history of oppression behind being a bloke. Cutting your dick off (or not) and wearing a dress doesn't make you a woman and never will. Simply calling yourself a woman is pretty insulting to the whole concept of being female in my opinion. I am respectful of trans individuals but do not entertain the idea that they are anything other than trans

I just don't see what born men have got to do with this specific conversation

I think there is an overlap. I don't genuinely believe, for example, all the men self identifying as trans men in californian prisons are genuinely trans, over 1% or 1100 people. It's open to such abuse and I feel for the women who are sitting ducks.

YANBU OP. It is dehumanising to women. Those who say they don't care do not speak for all women but they are blithely waving away our ability to speak about the reality of being born female in this society.