Why does he act so horrid?

[Thereoncewasahorridmama]

DS was pulling grass up to throw at Daddy, all fine. Then he pulled up my leafy plants. I told him off and explained they grow flowers that feed the bees and butterflies and they'll get hungry and we don't want that do we.
He tells me he DOES want that
So I ask how he'd feel if someone took away his food so he was hungry?
He says he's like that (he's a terrible eater)
So I ask of he'd like to have a grumbly hungry tummy and to get so tired he'd have to be in bed every day (he's hyper and never still so he'd hate to be stuck in bed)
He said yes, that's exactly what he wants.

He does it with other stuff. He'll shout and wake the babies. I'll tell him off and tell him the babies will cry and be sad if they don't get sleep
He'll say good, he likes it when they cry.

He's nearly 6. He's lovely. He adores the babies. He always offers to give away his toy if he gets a duplicate (say McDonalds etc).

So why is he so oppositional? And I find it really triggering so we get into debates like the flower one. It normally ends with me saying I don't believe him because I know he's a nice boy etc, or me telling him to go and sit away from me if he's going to be so horrid (for example making the babies sad)

I just don't understand why he says it. He also never wants to do to school and doesn't want to do anything when he's older except sit on the sofa.

I know it's something I'm doing but I don't know how to fix it. I've pointed out other people might believe it and this he IS horrid but he doesn't seem to care

@CervixHaver ops child is nearly 6. He is 5.

The issue isn't the pulling, it's the discussion afterwards because I said stop and he stopped

So stop having the discussion.
Its too much and gives him the opportunity to be contrary

I'm starting to see maybe the discussion isn't necessary. I just want to raise a responsible and empathetic child who makes the right choices

@Thereoncewasahorridmama

I'm starting to see maybe the discussion isn't necessary. I just want to raise a responsible and empathetic child who makes the right choices

Positive reinforcement over punishment then.

@Thereoncewasahorridmama

I'm starting to see maybe the discussion isn't necessary. I just want to raise a responsible and empathetic child who makes the right choices

Just stop him doing the behaviour you don't want.

Then role model the values that are important to you.

Reduce the discussion as it's just too tempting for him to engage in a debate that he'll always win.

I think he sounds just fine! A normal boy & I bet you are doing great as a mum.

I agree with those who say don’t debate with him, or attempt to make him listen to reason. Just tell him what he can and can’t do, and have proportionate, immediate consequences where necessary.

I do have some sympathy as this kind of thing would have worked on Dd but definitely not Ds at that age.

@Thereoncewasahorridmama

I'm starting to see maybe the discussion isn't necessary. I just want to raise a responsible and empathetic child who makes the right choices

I often fall into the same trap with my DD (just turned 6) - telling her no with a long explanation/ big discussion but it doesn’t work. It’s too much information for her, and I think it detracts from the instruction to ‘stop doing that’.

I’ve realised she responds better to short, simple, instructions/ discipline. The empathy can come another time (chatting about how bees need flowers because they eat nectar, that kind of thing).

DD also gets in a contrary mood where if I say something like ‘do you want to lose your time on the iPad’ (her favourite thing), she’ll respond by saying she hates playing iPad games and doesn’t care about missing out. So again I am trying to modify this by doing positive sentences ‘do X then you can go on the ipad/ watch TV/ we’ll play’.

Teaching children the meaning of No is crucial

It’s not a debate. It’s NO!

There’s actually lots of research that kids will only become pro social when they have learned the meaning of no. There is a massive incentive for you to quit the debates and teach him properly what no means

He's getting rewarded for being naughty - if he does something wrong he gets a good old chat with you which he has learned how to prolong by saying the opposite of what you want him to. He's got you well trained - clever chap !

Save the attention he enjoys (chatting and discussing) for when he is doing something constructive - you can talk about what he is painting what he has built with his lego and why he put that bit there or what his farm animals or cars etc are doing. (Just chat - not interrogation)

When he's doing something you don;t want him to - be brief and to the point.'Don't do that please, you will spoil my plants, leave them alone' any debate and you shut it down by repeating yourself firmly and walk away. If he does it again then there are consequences.

He doesn't sound like a 'little shit ' to me - he sounds like a little boy who has found a way on engaging and getting attention by arguing. He's a little young for empathy - he will acquire it as he gets older, for now just give him instructions when he is doing something wrong, instead of trying to make him feel something he doesn't.

The time to encourage empathy is when he is being good and cooperative - talk about things around you and what people or animals might be feeling - 'Oh look at that little bird, he's looking for some food I hope he finds some don't you or he'll be hungry' (and take some bird food with you) 'Oh dear that little boy is crying, he's fallen over and wants his Mummy because he's got a sore knee' etc etc.

Thank him for being quiet when the babies are sleeping (when he is) and when they are sleeping you can give him a bit of one to one because ' he was a good boy and played quietly while the babies were settling'

He is pushing you to see how far you will go / get a reaction. Your explanation not to touch the plants re the bees is a nice one, if he says he wants them to be hungry Id just leave it at that and change the subject. If he carries on, he gets time out.

@Thereoncewasahorridmama

I'm starting to see maybe the discussion isn't necessary. I just want to raise a responsible and empathetic child who makes the right choices

He needs you to parent him appropriately and simply provide the example/ role model age 5.

So
" please dont pull those ones up they are my flowers" is fine.
He stopped -all good.
No issue - he understands they are your flowers.

He is presumably aware that we dont damage things that belong to others ?
Age 5/6 I would expect this.

If he carried on and ruined them then the consequence would be an upset and angry person and he would also get a consequence -eg no screen time.

He has to be allowed to learn himself sometimes and this includes impulse control.

He's 5, no 5 year old is horrid. Even 5 year olds with severe behavioural issues aren't horrid.

I wanted to give context to why not

"Because I said so." covers most eventualities, I find.

A child that age is not going to have much in the way of either empathy or altruism, they just want to do what they want to do. If you don't want them to do it, then tell them so. No need to explain why.

We had this issue when i worked at school diinners. Most lunchtimes the kids would be creating mayhem and the headteacher wouod come in and explain that we don't behave like that in a restaurant and people wouldn't like them cue 3 dinner ladies rolling their eyes and muttering "just tell them to behave" . She would have to do that t at least 3 times a week, never worked.

This is a prefect opportunity to use tbe ‘because I said so’. And if it continues ‘this isn’t an argument DS, do as I say or go and play somewhere else’.

My youngest can be a bit like this - he’s a little smart arse and always has an answer for everything. I don’t mind having a debate with him - but pure defiance I will not tolerate. We have very similar personalities but I am the adult

I'm a teacher (secondary) who has to teach children whose parents have essentially 'taught' them how to keep negotiating/arguing/debating.

The best way to handle these things is to change your tone and language, so instead of 'please don't do that', try, 'Young man, you need to stop doing X, thank you' in a quiet but firm voice. Then a choice if he refuses: 'continue to do that and choose to go inside, or stop now'.

SleepingStandingUp - no you didn't, I thought someone else had, but reading back I think I must have imagined it or got muddled with another thread I was reading. Many apologies - I can only blame old age and general loopiness.