Why does he act so horrid?

[Thereoncewasahorridmama]

DS was pulling grass up to throw at Daddy, all fine. Then he pulled up my leafy plants. I told him off and explained they grow flowers that feed the bees and butterflies and they'll get hungry and we don't want that do we.
He tells me he DOES want that
So I ask how he'd feel if someone took away his food so he was hungry?
He says he's like that (he's a terrible eater)
So I ask of he'd like to have a grumbly hungry tummy and to get so tired he'd have to be in bed every day (he's hyper and never still so he'd hate to be stuck in bed)
He said yes, that's exactly what he wants.

He does it with other stuff. He'll shout and wake the babies. I'll tell him off and tell him the babies will cry and be sad if they don't get sleep
He'll say good, he likes it when they cry.

He's nearly 6. He's lovely. He adores the babies. He always offers to give away his toy if he gets a duplicate (say McDonalds etc).

So why is he so oppositional? And I find it really triggering so we get into debates like the flower one. It normally ends with me saying I don't believe him because I know he's a nice boy etc, or me telling him to go and sit away from me if he's going to be so horrid (for example making the babies sad)

I just don't understand why he says it. He also never wants to do to school and doesn't want to do anything when he's older except sit on the sofa.

I know it's something I'm doing but I don't know how to fix it. I've pointed out other people might believe it and this he IS horrid but he doesn't seem to care

You made him apologise to the bees? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
That's funny.

Just stop like others have said, engaging in a debate.
'Don't pull my plants out.'
Oh I will, I like it, I want bees to go hungry, I'll keep doing it, let them starve, I hate bees
'Zip it! Or you go inside.'

But I'm harsh.
I can't be arsed with smart arse kids.
The choice is stop your crap behaviour or go inside/lose privilege due to crap behaviour.

So if master of the house screams to wake up babies then he can't have tv, or something he was looking forward to.

Do you spend time together apart from these debates? He might be bored.

OP there’s a really good book called The Unconditional Parent by Alfie Kohn which discusses parenting in situations exactly like the one you have described, with oppositional children. I really recommend it as it could help remodel the way these interactions go.

I think you are just killing the vibe with all your talking to be honest.
He's playing in the garden. Just say 'don't touch the flowers!' in a really stern voice. Right now he doesn't listen to you and stop what he's doing because he knows what's to come - you're about to launch into a boring debate that he gets a kick out of winning.
Use distraction techniques and help him burn off energy first place. "Don't pull out the flowers! Come over here and turn on the water hose".
"Don't touch my flowers! Dad's going for a bike ride. Hurry up and catch him!"

I agree with the others except he doesn't sound horrid or spoilt, you're a fine mum, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with telling a 5 year old to leave you along if they are being horrid.

IME kids don't want long reasons for why they should or shouldn't do something. They get bored listening and it provides an opportunity to "debate" (backchat). I know it's not in fashion but honestly - no means no because I said so - is effective! And sometimes kinder to the poor kid than trying to persuade them to listen to you because you are right and they are wrong. It's okay to just have to listen to mum because she's the boss, even if they don't agree.

Just tell him NO! FGS. He’s old enough to understand.
No arguments. If he does it again anyway, sanctions. No sweets or TV or whatever.

From what you said first I thought you were talking about a 2 or 3 year old.

Bad eater, hyper, school refusal, stubborn.

Sounds like there is more going on to me, ADHD/ASD? How’s his sleeping?

He is old enough to not behave so badly. He is behaving horribly. He is old enough to hear no. Don't debate with a 6 year old. Tell him that No he will not do those things. If he persists then there has to be repercussions and he has to know how disappointing and hard it is for you for him to be so naughty.
You are not a bad mother. I do think though you are falling prey to the very modern and short-sighted phenomenon of allowing children to do and decide things when it isn't their job.

Perhaps you could try the explanation without the questions.
‘Don’t pull up the plants, I like them as they are and they are important for the bees and butterflies’. Then he doesn’t have any opportunity to answer your questions in a way that’ll wind you up.
With my children it was important that I then left them to it for a bit. I let them consider if they were going to continue their behaviour or not. If they misbehaved then there were consequences, if they chose to behave I reinforced their good behaviour by praising what they were doing.

Well, he clearly doesn’t want to go hungry or hear the babies crying, and he’s only saying it to get a rise out of you so my response would be a very curt “what a silly thing to say!” and then accept no further comment on the issue. Because he feels he can get the last word, he’s driven to try and get it no matter how outlandish the comment. You need to snip it off before that point. He’s 6, he doesn’t have that power and he can’t handle having it.

He isn't horrid. He's a person!

People have aggressive and difficult ruthless feelings as well as loving and gentle and kind ones. We all have to learn to manage them.

He needs help to understand and manage those from you, rather than to get the message that those feelings are weird and there is something wrong with him.

My son is like this and he is only 3.

When he does somthing wrong he gets a warning so 'DS if you throw that toy again I'm going to take it off you' he will reply 'that's ok I'll just hide it' or 'DS if you hit me one more time I'll have to ring Daddy to tell him not to get your magazine on his way home' he will reply 'no you wont I'll hide your phone'. I deal with the answering back by pretending I haven't heard him saying it and if he does carry on doing what I've asked him not to do, I follow through with what I've said and prove to him that he wont be hiding his toy or my phone because I'm the adult and he is the child.

He is quite a handful and when I've had a bad day with him I cant bare the answering back but if I react to it then he thinks he has outsmarted me and it makes him want to do it again. I didnt expect him to be doing this at age 3.

I think you are expecting too much empathy and understanding for his age. Most kids don't care if a bee is hungry. Also agree with PP saying you are inviting debate because you're asking rhetorical questions. When he has just been told off, asking a rhetorical question is always going to get an 'opposite' answer. Try saying 'we're not allowed to pull those up, they are flowers that I planted. We can cut some blossom together and put it in a vase though' so you are changing the subject to something he can do.

Because you start the debate and you've just met yourself coming backwards? He's 6, not horrid, just defiant and doesn't want to concede his point & neither do you.

You're the adult, you're the parent. Just a simple reprimand without the several bullet points is enough for him. It's not that complex.

@DrinkFeckArseBrick

I think you are expecting too much empathy and understanding for his age. Most kids don't care if a bee is hungry. Also agree with PP saying you are inviting debate because you're asking rhetorical questions. When he has just been told off, asking a rhetorical question is always going to get an 'opposite' answer. Try saying 'we're not allowed to pull those up, they are flowers that I planted. We can cut some blossom together and put it in a vase though' so you are changing the subject to something he can do.

This is a great post. You’re backing him into a corner and then telling him he’s horrid for his reaction, and he’s five!

You’re painting him as the bad guy too, and he’ll remember that.

Babies, plural? So you recently had twins? I imagine that’s turned his life upside down and he’s desperate to get your attention even if that’s in a negative way. Have a look at Siblings without Rivalry to understand his experience a bit more.

And that's how "because I said so" happens dont do that because xyz leads to debate discussion and opportunity to be in opposition with your parents dont do this because I say so is non debatable my daughter tried it I said im the adult you will do what I ask she said when SHE is the adult and IM the child she will make up rules that take the fun out of things too she is now an adult im sadly not a child

You are trying to reason with him like an adult or an older child but he knows that saying the opposite to what you want him to say gets a reaction from you.
For some reason he likes your annoyed reaction.
I wouldn’t have even though about entering into this kind of discussion with my 5 year olds. If they were pulling up the plants it would just be ‘no we don’t do that, it’s not kind to pull up plants, we leave them alone.’
Screaming waking up the babies. ‘Don’t scream, the babies are trying to sleep so we are quiet.’ I wouldn’t be adding on ‘we don’t want that do we?’
This phase will pass but just avoid discussing it. Tell him no, be firm and consistent and have repercussions if he carries on.

I expected him to be a toddler from the way you were speaking to him.

I would have said "don't pull those ones up, I planted them and they cost money" then directed him to some weeds he could pull up as much as he liked.

Both my DSs would happily eliminate all the bees in the world because of the times they stung their friends, BTW - I don't think it's an especially concerning world view in a child!

Op because he’s five and pushing boundaries is what they do

Wait till he’s a teen. This will seem a walk in the park. 😃

Why does he wake the babies up?

@RickiTarr

What does he do for leisure, play or hobbies?

Could he be one of those DC who need something to wear them out and really occupy them?

At this point he was in the garden with a mid kitchen, slide and trampoline. Trust me, I wasn't suggesting he be still, ever. He's never still.

@avamiah he's actually golden at school, quiet, stillish, obedient. School and the school mom's wouldn't believe me if I said he's stroppy and argumentative at home. But you're right in it being my fault and I'm trying to change us both

It sounds like he knows he will get your attention for a sustained time if he keeps answering back. Next time just say no, if he doesn’t stop, give a consequence and follow through.

@SympathyFatigue

You made him apologise to the bees? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 That's funny.

Just stop like others have said, engaging in a debate.
'Don't pull my plants out.'
Oh I will, I like it, I want bees to go hungry, I'll keep doing it, let them starve, I hate bees
'Zip it! Or you go inside.'

But I'm harsh.
I can't be arsed with smart arse kids.
The choice is stop your crap behaviour or go inside/lose privilege due to crap behaviour.

So if master of the house screams to wake up babies then he can't have tv, or something he was looking forward to.

Do you spend time together apart from these debates? He might be bored.

Yes we do, and I had no issue with his pulling up the long grass and throwing it at Daddy who was wearing a washing basket on his head as a shield. Just my flowers. And he stopped first time of being told to but the ooohhhh whine when being told to, even though he complies, makes me feel like we need to talk it out. But I end up in a corner.

The her being hungry turned into what if he was hungry and how he'd like that and then I feel locked in into making him feel differently. But maybe posters are right and it's just he's forgot the original point but knows this is annoying me and getting a reaction.

I have totally missed the point of this thread (apologies) obsessing over whether anyone actually uses the word 'horrid' these days?