AIBU politically - want to understand the left but unable to

[Linguistmum]

I know a lot of people whose view of the world is politically more left than right and I have always come along with them very well. Personally I cannot define myself as "left-wing" even though so many friends of mine are like that. I'm sure I have badly misunderstood something about what being a left-wing/liberal means. I seem to think that being liberal is about acting like that, not about honestly caring of everyone but of yourself. For me, political right is easier to understand: you basically want to succeed and everything that you do is based on optimizing the best outcome for you and your family - it can include helping others, but the goal is still to benefit from it. The political left, in turn, is confusing. Why do you want good for others, why to care about human rights, why care about minorities? And --- do you really care?
Some examples I am confused with:
-Most parents want their children to succeed. If you are politically left and liberal politically, how is it possible at the same time to 1) promote diversity and equality and 2) help yout own child succeed?

-Let's think you are a white, middle- or upper class woman and you have two lovely children. You support human rights and want more diversity in the workplace and elsewhere. You don't like social hiearches. Does that change your own actions - if your own child is applying for a job and there is another applicant of a poor background, do you think that other applicant should get the job and your child should wait for another chance?

-If competition is seen as negative, why do left-wing liberals still engage in sports where competition is the whole idea? Does it feel bad that your football team wins and the other one loses?

I know these examples might sound completely strange and out of this world. But I've been thinking of these from time to time.

If you are politically left and liberal, please explain how you see the world in these cases! Thank you in advance.

I do not think all conservatives are uncaring, but we definitely approach the question from a different angle. The current Conservative government is terrifying corrupt and lacking in any sense of empathy. I am also extremely wary of the authoritarian woke politics and cancel culture currently being peddled by some on the left. We have lost all nuance from political discussion.
All of this and a packet of crisps 👏🏻

It is not surprising that the happiness of populations, safety and the general stability of countries improves when the standard of living improves for all citizens. So there is also a selfish motive to caring about the welfare of other people

Absolutely, no point being very rich if you live in fear of being robbed.

Its funny though that right wing governed countries seem to have far more inequality and generally speaking, a less happy population.

[quote TheRuralLife89]@IRelateToViewpointsNotPeople I think also the best thing is to hire based solely on qualifications and experience rather than all these "diversity" factors. I think positive discrimination highlights differences and pits people against each other. It encourages the "diverse" people to see themselves as victims and the majority to feel resentful of them...it creates a perception that they only got the job to fill a diversity quota. As an ethnic minority person, I don't want my colleagues to view me that way. Not one person I know who positive discrimination aims to help actually wants positive discrimination. They just want people to not discriminate AGAINST them. [/quote]
I quite agree with you again on this and the previous post. Appreciate your balanced view and detailed consideration. Great post indeed!

Oh sorry, the previous post I mentioned in my reply to @TheRuralLife89 was that of @Rahri. Confused both usernames, though same sentiment for both.

Yes I quite agree that you, @Rahri and your nuanced view on these issues.

Agree with you, not that you... in your reply to my post.

@Rahri Yes, I agree. I found your posts really interesting. I think there is a fundamental contradiction in our society though...the capitalist system pushes individualism, so it's difficult to then convince people to do things for the collective good.

@IRelateToViewpointsNotPeople Thank you 😊 and likewise.
So rare to have a balanced and civil discussion on this forum about these issues 😃

[quote TheRuralLife89]@Rahri Yes, I agree. I found your posts really interesting. I think there is a fundamental contradiction in our society though...the capitalist system pushes individualism, so it's difficult to then convince people to do things for the collective good. [/quote]
Yes, although I'd qualify that by saying it's our particular version of capitalism that is the problem. Plus adverse cultural influences that have been exacerbated by powerful people particularly in recent times for their own gain.

Capitalism has brought huge scientific and medical advances and raised prosperity and living standards across the globe. No system is perfect and we're yet to come up with a better one. It is the moral/ cultural standards that underpin it I think that are causing most of the problems in western societies. The extremism: it all brings me back to Aristotle and moderation.

The Scandinavian countries are capitalist. But the effects of raw capitalism are mitigated by a strong sense of social responsibility and effective laws to ensure fairness and a level of resdistribution that largely mitigates poverty. This works because there is also the sense of social responsibility that the vast majority of people do not in general needlessly take advantage of it and try to contribute to society if they are able to.

Ultimately it seems to me that the truth and balance, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. And that we'd be much better off if we resisted the attempts by vested interests to divide us into opposing camps and really thought about things and what positive changes could be made that almost everyone would be on board with. Most people I believe are fundamentally decent and want a better society with less suffering, and it can be achieved without huge sacrifices at a personal level, if the will is there to do it.

Sadly at the moment, within our Parliament, it is not.

In the running for the most bonkers opening post for me. I can understand why you might vote one way rather than another but to categorise yourself as someone who doesn't care about others is fairly breathtaking.

You talk a lot of sense @TheRuralLife89

You're a sad creature OP

OP, most posters here hailing altruism would behave exactly the same as you in your examples. But they would never admit it. That's what I experience IRL.

OP, one of the reasons we need governments is that on a day-to-day basis through the ups and downs of life, individuals cannot be reliably expected to make decisions for the greater good. You can be, say, left-wing liberal, without necessarily examining every one of your big and small life decisions to check if they fit with your politics.

Here's an example from me: I went to a grammar school and did really well out of it. I have bright dc who would do well in a grammar school. If we lived in a grammar school area, I'd try and get my dc into one. I'm a teacher and would very happily teach in one.

However, I don't actually think the grammar school system serves the greater good, so I would prefer to vote for a party that didn't support grammar schools. I can make pragmatic decisions based on the situation I find myself in, but that doesn't stop me from voting for what I see as the best for all.

I believe virtually all the world religions have something to say about why it is good to care about others and not just yourself/your family.

So perhaps familiarise yourself with those? Jesus Christ in particular is apparently fairly voluble on it.

And being left wing and being liberal are not synonymous. It’s possible to be both, just about, but there a lot of left wing people who’s re liberal and vice versa.

In short though “No man is an island”. Everyone depends on others. Not recognising that leads to a life that is dog eat dog. And in fact most people will lose out badly in a war of all against all.

And you might want to Google the origins of the phrase “a life that is nasty, cruel, brutish and short”.

@workwoes123

Not sure if the OP is going to come back but... from reading the wording of the post and some of the ideas / questions expressed therein, I’m wondering if she is from an Asian culture, possibly SE Asian. I have a good friend who is Malaysian and I’ve spent some time with her and her friends from Malaysia and China, and some of their cultural beliefs for right in here. These are not societies that believe in or pursue equality / equity. They are based on competition and achieving status through competitive achievement. They are baffled by the existence of the welfare state (we live in France where social / economic welfare is very generous).

Anyhoo, I could be completely off the mark.

@workwoes123 not quite true. Asians are very family oriented and if someone’s in trouble they would likely receive family help - or directly from community institutions (such as the Chinese clan associations in Malaysia). There are very few people floating around with no support network which seems to be the norm here. The majority of governments in Asia are alsocorrupt so there’s a lack of institutional trust. This doesn’t mean that there’s no belief in equity - just that they don’t trust the government to share the wealth. Bearing in mind that almost every government is SEA+China is either un democratic or has racism enshrined in law (e.g in Malaysia the majority race gets special rights and privileges) you can see why.

@ILikeTheWineNotTheLabel

I believe virtually all the world religions have something to say about why it is good to care about others and not just yourself/your family.

So perhaps familiarise yourself with those? Jesus Christ in particular is apparently fairly voluble on it.

And being left wing and being liberal are not synonymous. It’s possible to be both, just about, but there a lot of left wing people who’s re liberal and vice versa.

In short though “No man is an island”. Everyone depends on others. Not recognising that leads to a life that is dog eat dog. And in fact most people will lose out badly in a war of all against all.

Hmmmm... they may well do. But they also talk about women as less than men, and are full of all kinds of discrimination, homophobia and arbitrary rules. Far better to take a logical, compassionate approach based on reason and empathy.

I'm neither left nor right wing.

Why do I care? Empathy. Do I really care? Yes I do.

I do object to jobs being offered based on characteristics, rather than on merit. If more ethnic minorities and LGBT were supported on a grass roots level to succeed, then yes that's equitable. Otherwise it's not.

Not sure what you're on about with the rest of the OP. And social hierarchy, introduced by the aristocracy, is dying out... only desperados hold onto that notion.

I have read some but not all of the thread but there's clearly quite a lot of confusion going on when it comes to definitions - what is right-wing, liberal, left-wing. So really you need to define your terms before agreeing/disagreeing with them. For example, lots of Marxists would go against those who support identity politics/minority rights. Many liberals are fairly right-wing, particularly when it comes to economics and would be associated with the right rather than the left.

If the OP is really asking why some people support for individualistic types of belief system over individualistic ones then lots of PP have already answered that question. But that not strictly speaking a left/right divide.

I went to a grammar school and did really well out of it. I have bright dc who would do well in a grammar school

However, I don't actually think the grammar school system serves the greater good, so I would prefer to vote for a party that didn't support grammar schools

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Would you have preferred to live under a government that had abolished grammar schools so that you wouldn't have been able to attend?

If the OP is really asking why some people support individualistic rather than collectivist belief systems

Liberalism is about personal freedom

But it doesn't seem to be. Think about 'cancel culture' being promoted by those who appear to be 'liberals'

Being left leaning politically means I value equity over equality. This means some people appear to have a bigger helping hand, but in reality it's just making things fair across the board

Left wing - based on socialist principles (extreme example is communism) believing everyone should receive what they want according to need. So larger governments, and higher taxes. Focus is on societies responsibility

The problem with some of these views is that some put in a substantially higher amount of effort than others. So the idea of 'equity' and 'society's responsibility' is a fallacy. 'Society' doesn't exist, it's always down to individuals. There will be those who make most of the contribution and they may not necessarily be the stereotypically 'privileged'

@KeeTcat

I'm neither left nor right wing.

Why do I care? Empathy. Do I really care? Yes I do.

I do object to jobs being offered based on characteristics, rather than on merit. If more ethnic minorities and LGBT were supported on a grass roots level to succeed, then yes that's equitable. Otherwise it's not.

Not sure what you're on about with the rest of the OP. And social hierarchy, introduced by the aristocracy, is dying out... only desperados hold onto that notion.

Agreed - having some ethnic minorities a disproportionate proportion of the underprivileged and then expecting to have a good candidate pool of them to pick for jobs is ridiculous

@Linguistmum OP you sound like the perfect mixture of selfish, cruel and unintelligent.