AIBU politically - want to understand the left but unable to

[Linguistmum]

I know a lot of people whose view of the world is politically more left than right and I have always come along with them very well. Personally I cannot define myself as "left-wing" even though so many friends of mine are like that. I'm sure I have badly misunderstood something about what being a left-wing/liberal means. I seem to think that being liberal is about acting like that, not about honestly caring of everyone but of yourself. For me, political right is easier to understand: you basically want to succeed and everything that you do is based on optimizing the best outcome for you and your family - it can include helping others, but the goal is still to benefit from it. The political left, in turn, is confusing. Why do you want good for others, why to care about human rights, why care about minorities? And --- do you really care?
Some examples I am confused with:
-Most parents want their children to succeed. If you are politically left and liberal politically, how is it possible at the same time to 1) promote diversity and equality and 2) help yout own child succeed?

-Let's think you are a white, middle- or upper class woman and you have two lovely children. You support human rights and want more diversity in the workplace and elsewhere. You don't like social hiearches. Does that change your own actions - if your own child is applying for a job and there is another applicant of a poor background, do you think that other applicant should get the job and your child should wait for another chance?

-If competition is seen as negative, why do left-wing liberals still engage in sports where competition is the whole idea? Does it feel bad that your football team wins and the other one loses?

I know these examples might sound completely strange and out of this world. But I've been thinking of these from time to time.

If you are politically left and liberal, please explain how you see the world in these cases! Thank you in advance.

I don’t think the old dichotomies of left and right wing work anymore. It isn’t true that the left are more pro minority than the right for instance- the next Conservative leader is going to be from a minority. I was raised labour but will struggle to know who to vote for in the next election. I know ‘out and proud’ Tories who do loads of unglamorous voluntary work- ferrying elderly and disabled people around and organising events for no reward. I know vocal left wingers who do a lot of online virtue signalling and go on demos but otherwise are safe in their ivory towers. I had a very right on vocally labour supporting land lady who tried to evict me when I had a new born baby because she wanted to redecorate. Labour do not seem to me to be a coherent opposition to the Tories. I have been more inspired by the Northern Independence Party, and I don’t even live up North.

I thought right wingers have the money and want to keep it, while left wingers don't have money and want to get some. ;-)

You don't seem to care about other people due to empathy or for ethical reasons, which I find quite sad. However, your position also does not make sense from a selfish point of view. If you don't care about others, they also won't care about you and they are many more than you. Good luck with that.

I am a left winger and I have lost out on jobs due to diversity and I am absolutely fine with that. My children hopefully won't loose out, because they are working b*** hard and because they belong to an ethnic minorty and that is also fine with me. :-)

To me being a left winger has everything to do with fairness and compassion, something many conservatives I know definitely lack. It also has a lot to do with progress and change, which is something many conservatives (to conserve= to keep!) seem to be afraid of.

I think a lot of competition just leads to some people making sure they have unfair advantages (eg. tutors). It often has nothing to do with real achievement or fairness. I don't take my kids' sports serious enough to worry about that though.

Your old fashioned Tory was not without compassion for those worse off, they just believed it should be offered by charity rather than the state. It’s the same in the US.

they are working b* hard

I can’t figure this one out!

It benefits everyone if everyone is happy. If I trample on loads of people on my way to the top they might end up mugging me or stealing my car or something.

Religious extremism doesn't really impact me day to day but if it could all be resolved peacefully I'd probably have a slightly lower risk of being blown up by a suicide bomber.

@sadpapercourtesan

It's a bit difficult to know where to start with this, because your problem seems to be that you don't understand why everybody else isn't dyed-in-the-wool selfish

Left-wingers don't think all competition is bad. Using your sports analogy: yes, I would engage in a competitive sport and enjoy winning fairly and squarely, but if the other team were at an unfair disadvantage for some reason, I would want it rectified even if it meant fewer wins for my team. Wouldn't you?

If my son went for a job in a company which was trying to improve its diversity and equality profile, and he lost out to a candidate from an ethnic minority background or a woman, I'd expect him to understand why that had happened and move on. Apply for more jobs. The broader fairness and decency of the society we live in actually matters to me, yes. Even at my own expense.

But if your son was better qualified for the job, why move on? Surely its the best candidate??

The values you espouse are not 'right wing' OP.

You seem to understand neither left or right wing principles.

As a lefty I always had trouble in understanding how good people could be right wing.

I read a great book called don't think of an elephant

It laid out the differences in philosophy.

It's the difference between thinking that giving people a hand Vs expecting them to do it themselves is better for people.

It's a good book and helped.

I don't think that

Nepotism
Not caring about anyone except you and yours

Are right wing values

I think you're just not a nice person.

Maybe read a book about political theories.

Are you American op? I don't want to seem like I'm generalising but I've met many more Americans than Brits with your opinions

I agree that you haven’t really described left and right wing here.

To address your point that you can’t understand why anyone would genuinely care about the welfare of others, there is a ‘selfish’ argument to make that improving the lot of those around you improves your own lot by default - if you run a business in a prosperous society you will fare better than if you run a business in a poor society. However, I don’t think there are many people of any political persuasion who are really thinking that way (selfishly). Empathy is a basic human trait. You must have some?

There is no such thing as good without th greater good. Lefty and proud.

@derxa

I think I'm jaded with the idea that people care about others because of Twitter. So much nastiness going around from both sides. What I can't understand is the vitriol poured on the head of Keir Starmer by the more left wing side of the Labour party.

Agree totally, and when I do those online political quizzes I always come up as vastly more extremely left wing than I consider myself to be. Mind you I voted for Starmer on the grounds I thought he'd have a chance in a GE as I'd prefer a less left wing than my ideal in government rather than any level of right wing government.

@ragged

that first paragraph is garbled

both left & right care about people, they just have different perspectives on role of govt & responsibilities of individuals

This ^

The right believe that given the right conditions individuals should be able to succeed. If they don't it's their own fecklessness. So therefore no need to give support to others. (This suits those whose already have done well. Their start to life having given them a bump or those who were lucky with being clever, lucky and good at business do well. If you don't succeed they consider this to be your own fault. Nothing to do with class/sex/race/disability/poverty/luck. Success should be rewarded through tax breaks, and the ability to access better healthcare/schools etc

The left believe that some people are disadvantaged from the off (poverty, illness, disability, shite parents, poor education not being good at things that are likely to make money) and need more support to be able to live a decent life. They know that hard work does not always equate good pay especially in jobs that benefit society (think keyworker as a short cut). They believe that public services should help support all especially those already struggling.

The left like to sell us the fact they’re more caring and the right are a bunch of selfish arses. My lived experience is my family and my friends have all been better off and better supported under Tory Governments but we’re not allowed to say that because Labour is the party of the people.

My personal view is any Government with a strong opposition is the ideal scenario as they are properly held to account and kept fairly middle ground non extremist.

Thinking about football. The right would say that Man City are winning because they work hard and deserve to win. The left would say they have bought all the best players

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

@m0therofdragons but how come child poverty is so much worse under the Tories?

I'm a socialist because I recognise that there are structural inequalities in our society that create a hierarchy and an economy that works by exploiting people and is destroying our planet through the profit motive.
I want to change that and have a society that is more fair, more equal where people can be happy and secure and not trash the planet. I want that for me and my kids and everyone else's kids because I don't think you can live a good life in a bad society.

I recognise that there are lots of good kind people who are right wing in that they accept and support the current system, but having done rather well out of it choose to help the less fortunate, and who distrust the idea of state power and prefer everyone to just help their own community.
Similarly there are also lots of professedly left wing people who are doing quite well out of a big state, and are at a personal level not as co-operative and decent as they would like you to think.
And everyone wants the best for their children, the difference is whether you are willing to accept that means not all children having the best.

[quote Pinchoftums]@m0therofdragons but how come child poverty is so much worse under the Tories?[/quote]
Because the Labour government left us with a huge deficit.

I just do care about other people as well as my immediate family and freinds. Having empathy is just how I am. I also see that a society where everyone is better looked after is a nicer place to live - it was much nicer to walk round London and other cities without the numbers of rough sleepers/beggars that are now for example. It was nicer to have a functioning health service.

I care OP because I am just a human. We are all just people. I don’t need to be friends with everyone but I absolutely support equality for everyone and I will shout for those that have a lower platform than I. It is bigger than just me and my family.

Hmph. Well assuming this is for real...health care provision is the most blindingly obvious example I can think of. In countries like America, some people die from very treatable conditions because they cannot afford health insurance.

In this country, if you are ill and need medical assistance, you will get it regardless of your financial situation. Yes, the NHS can be shit at times, but they'll treat you.

Personally, I do not want to live in a country where people die from very treatable conditions, just because they can't afford the medication and happen to live in a society that fuels inequality.

HTH

Bp300 if you are still swallowing that line then there's no hope.
It was a global financial crash - not the labour party that caused that situation.
Look at the money found to deal with covid. Austerity was ideological not necessary.

In countries like America, some people die from very treatable conditions because they cannot afford health insurance.

Don’t forget the cherry on top of that shit sundae: the American government spend more per head on healthcare than we do, despite the fact we have universal healthcare.

@Stripyhoglets1

Bp300 if you are still swallowing that line then there's no hope. It was a global financial crash - not the labour party that caused that situation. Look at the money found to deal with covid. Austerity was ideological not necessary.

Absolute nonsense, they ran a huge deficit during the biggest economic boom in history. It was totally unsustainable. Unfortunately the the current government have run up an even bigger deficit.

It's not really about caring for others for me. It's that I think working collectively is more efficient and I am (would be) happier as a part of a society that is structured like that rather than one based on individualism where my own success necessarily depends on others' failure.