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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The term "The Queen of England"

294 replies

DynamoKev · 13/04/2021 12:31

In view of recent events this term has been appearing again.

My theory is that it originates from the USA - does anyone else agree or have a different view about where it started/is from?

royalcentral.co.uk/features/insight/queen-elizabeth-ii-is-not-the-queen-of-england-is-it-so-hard-to-get-it-right-138067/

OP posts:
derxa · 13/04/2021 19:55

@SenecaFallsRedux

Americans call us all English.

Not the millions upon millions of us who have Scottish surnames, we don't.

Very true. And the French don't particularly either. The Auld Alliance and all that.
Butchyrestingface · 13/04/2021 19:56

@PrelovedWithValue

This is one time that I couldn't care less about England being used when someone actually means the UK/Britain etc.

The English can keep her. I don't have anything against her, specifically. Just against the whole idea that being born into one specific family somehow makes you more special than anyone else, and that us plebs should pay for their lavish lifestyle.

Same. And when I see all the histrionics at the palace gates when a Royal dies, I feel like I'm looking at members of a different species...

Whenever I hear "The Queen of England", I tend to think of Elizabeth I.

fluffysocks89 · 13/04/2021 19:57

but I do love the pomp and glory. You can shoot me for that but I love it

Fine, , but would you object if a different family could be voted in every five years or so, and support all their children, grandchildren, the lot of them, with all their castles and palaces, and throw about £365 million their way, or is it just the Windsor’s who should get it all.

derxa · 13/04/2021 20:01

[quote Changechangychange]@derxa Will Prague Castle do? 8.5m visitors a year, according to Google. No Royal family in residence.

We could even compare Hampton Court Palace (former royal palace, 4.7m visitors), with Windsor Castle (current royal palace, 1.65m visitors). Or Buckingham Palace, with a mere 50000 visitors.[/quote]
I'm not interested in facts or figures.

fluffysocks89 · 13/04/2021 20:01

Scandal is rife amongst French politicians. Sarcozy sentenced to jail. Mistresses etc. They love it.

Yes and in a democratic society they get to be voted out. The trouble with the royals we can’t do that. Outrageous.

derxa · 13/04/2021 20:06

@fluffysocks89

Scandal is rife amongst French politicians. Sarcozy sentenced to jail. Mistresses etc. They love it.

Yes and in a democratic society they get to be voted out. The trouble with the royals we can’t do that. Outrageous.

Maybe I enjoy the scandal to paraphrase Mrs Doyle.
MyRight · 13/04/2021 20:07

@fluffysocks89

but I do love the pomp and glory. You can shoot me for that but I love it

Fine, , but would you object if a different family could be voted in every five years or so, and support all their children, grandchildren, the lot of them, with all their castles and palaces, and throw about £365 million their way, or is it just the Windsor’s who should get it all.

The figure you suggest is more in keeping with the revenue they generate rather than what is spent on them. It wouldn’t really work with different people being voted in, where’s the heritage in that?
GintyMcGinty · 13/04/2021 20:16

I don't understand why people are 'enraged' by this though. Sure, if you are a pendant its a bit irritating when people get things wrong - but 'rage' really?

Are you equally outraged when people mix up Ireland and Northern Ireland?
Does your blood pressure rise when someone calls every country that used to be in the Soviet Union - Russia?

Does your blood boil when your hear 'Holland' instead of The Netherlands?

MyRight · 13/04/2021 20:24

I don’t know about Prague but
the Crown Estate brought in £330 million in 2017/18, this money goes to the government who then give the Queen a grant based on 25% of the Crown Estate’s income two years previously.But the Crown Estate isn’t the royal family’s private property. The Queen pays tax to government on her other private incomes.

Thepilotlightsgoneout · 13/04/2021 20:27

I noticed when the BBC announced Philip’s death last week, the newsreader called him ‘...the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh....’

Had never heard it said with a ‘the’ in front before.

PrelovedWithValue · 13/04/2021 20:33

Americans call us all English

As do some English people. I know, an Englishman once introduced me as 'also from England' when I was spending time in Israel. And was confused when I said (in my obviously Scottish accent) that I wasn't.

Bloodypunkrockers · 13/04/2021 20:37

@GintyMcGinty

I don't understand why people are 'enraged' by this though. Sure, if you are a pendant its a bit irritating when people get things wrong - but 'rage' really?

Are you equally outraged when people mix up Ireland and Northern Ireland?
Does your blood pressure rise when someone calls every country that used to be in the Soviet Union - Russia?

Does your blood boil when your hear 'Holland' instead of The Netherlands?

Yes Yes And yes
ssd · 13/04/2021 20:38

I seen a post earlier from someone telling someone else to go and educate themselves on the monarchy and the queen of England.

You couldn't make it up

ohforarainyday · 13/04/2021 20:54

The monarchy is completely bloodline based as have monarchies throughout the centuries in Europe. The Queen is not 'English' or 'German, she is descended from people who have sat on the throne of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Well, not really. All throughout English and British history, the line of succession ("bloodline") has been ignored and overruled, and the crown has been illegally seized through violence.

William the Conqueror (the first in what's considered the 'official' line of monarchs) was a foreign invader who took the crown by force, after killing the rightful king.

A century (and an entire civil war fought over succession) later, his great-great-great-grandson Richard I died childless. According to the laws of succession and bloodline, the throne should have passed to the son of the next oldest brother. However this was an unpopular choice because the boy had a French mother, so the youngest brother King John was crowned instead.

200 years later Henry Bolingbroke deposed and imprisoned the rightful king Richard II and illegally crowned himself King, one of the most significant acts in English royal history since it challenged the concept of Divine Right of Kings (i.e. the belief that royals are directly anointed by God).

Henry VI was overthrown, kidnapped, and killed by his own cousin Edward of York, who crowned himself king, and of course when he died the throne passed not back to the rightful 'blood' line but to Edward's younger brother Richard III.

Not even gonna touch the whole "did Richard III kill the two York Princes in the tower because they were the rightful heirs" thing.

Then Henry Tudor sailed over from France, overthrew and killed Richard III in battle, and crowned himself king, even though his "blood" claim to the throne was extremely weak - his mother was the illegitimate great-granddaughter of John of Gaunt, the younger son of King Edward III. The only reason Henry Tudor got away with it was a) everyone else was dead b) he legitimised his crown by immediately marrying the York Princess, uniting the Houses of Lancaster and York and finally ending the most bloody and destructive civil war in English history. And even then Henry Tudor had to survive numerous attempts to challenge his right to the crown, and basically had to murder a shitload of people who either challenged him, or had a stronger blood-claim to the crown than he did.

When Queen Anne died childless, parliament passed the Act of Settlement 1701 law, which meant that 48 immediate blood heirs in the direct Line of Succession were skipped over because they were Catholic, and after much debate and fighting between the Whigs and Tories, they selected a distant German cousin to be the new monarch. All the current royals are descended from him.

If succession went purely by blood, then those 48 people and all of their descendants would be ahead of the House of Windsor. Hell if you go strictly by blood descent, the numerous descendants of John of Gaunt are all ahead of the Windsors.

Elizabeth II would be like 1567th in line for the British Throne - and would probably be an ordinary German woman - if not for anti-Catholic laws.

ohforarainyday · 13/04/2021 21:03

derxa: I'm not interested in facts

'k

derxa · 13/04/2021 21:07

and would probably be an ordinary German woman Not really

pallisers · 13/04/2021 21:20

Thanks for that post ohforarainyday (although the cousin chosen to be monarch was Sophia of Hanover - George I was her son. if she hadn't died before Anne, she would have become queen). It is fascinating.

I don't think I've ever heard of her referred to as anything but the Queen of England by irish people.

The american presidency is entirely different from the irish presidency - completely different constitutional roles. the american president is of far more consequence politically than the Irish president. Although the Irish president has more power than the UK Queen - the Irish president could have referred Boris Johnson's "request" to prorogue parliament directly to the supreme court for a ruling on constitutionality. the queen couldn't but was obliged to do as he asked.

ohforarainyday · 13/04/2021 21:22

True, if the anti-Catholic legislation meaning 48 direct blood heirs were passed over, Elizabeth's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather would never have immigrated from Germany to England in the first place, and Elizabeth would never have been born.

But of course derxa "isn't interested in facts."

ohforarainyday · 13/04/2021 21:23

(although the cousin chosen to be monarch was Sophia of Hanover - George I was her son. if she hadn't died before Anne, she would have become queen).

Yes, sorry, you're absolutely correct - well pointed out!

Peregrina · 13/04/2021 21:25

And there have been several since, including Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and Diana Spencer (they had the courtesy title "Lady", but they were still commoners).

Which is why when Lady Diana was going to her wedding she was accompanied by outriders of the Police and not the usual Household Cavalry (or whoever, but in Royal Service.)

Peregrina · 13/04/2021 21:28

Love your potted history ohforarainyday. Henry Tudor got away with it because everyone else was dead and then murdered a shitload of people. This is not how it's portrayed in the history books. I wonder why? Grin

pallisers · 13/04/2021 21:30

sorry meant to say we have Alison Weir's brilliant book Britain's Royal Families, the complete geneology. dd2 and I love it.

Crosstrainer · 13/04/2021 21:37

@MyRight

The Queen's full name is Elizabeth Alexandra Mary. Her full official title is Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
Yes! “Queen Elizabeth” was her mother, Queen consort to George VI. She is either “The Queen” or, as @MyRight says, her longer title.
StillCoughingandLaughing · 13/04/2021 21:38

@derxa

and would probably be an ordinary German woman Not really
Well, who she’d be now is a matter of conjecture - but who she almost definitely wouldn’t be is Queen. I’m not sure what the family tree you shared is meant to prove - all that shows is line of descent. I don’t think anyone’s saying the Queen IS just some random German woman. But as @ohforarainyday pointed out, the Hanoverians wouldn’t have got anywhere near the British throne if Catholics hadn’t been barred from the line of succession.