Vulnerable adult being questioned during house survey?

[30julytoday]

Should I make a complaint?

My DH ad I selling our home to downsize. DH has mental health issues resulting in poor memory, suspiciousness, poor cognitive function. Not obviously apparent to strangers . He Is on anti psychotic meds

So buyers surveyors asked to come on day i had a short hospital appointment. They couldn’t give a time in advance. They said we should try to vacate property or restrict ourselves to a single room, open doors windows etc due to covid. Given this. I agreed to their visit on that day, knowing DH may be on his own depending on what time they turned up. I saw no issue with this given he just needed to let them in and then stay out of their way

So just found out, 2 days later, that after I left they asked my DH if he would help them answer some questions about the valuation. Turns out it wasn’t about the valuation. He felt they were interrogating him, and they were asking him loads about various structural work on the property and issues they’d found.
He struggles to remember stuff. Told me he said things to them that aren’t true. He got in a panic trying to find documents that he would never be able to remember where they are kept. Result is 2 days later I have a stressed and panicking husband who feels he was forced to divulge stuff but he can’t remember what about. I’m at a loss to know what was asked or what he told them. I know he said some things that are misleading in findings and report.

Given they did not say they would be asking us anything should I tell them they cannot use any of the information he told them given we don’t now know what DH said and the stress he was under, and that he lacks full mental capacity? If I’d known in advanced they’d need to ask questions I’d have told them they couldn’t come that day and it needed to be while I was there

We’ve never been asked questions at a survey before...does this even sound right? I’d have been very reserved over what I divulged to them in these circumstances even though we don’t have issues we are aware of in the house.

They were also apparently banging on patio doors to try to get information from him while he was sitting inside while they were doing the outside stuff. Then when they did wan5 to come in scared the living daylights out of DH by ringing the bell multiple times and pounding on the front door- he thought there was an emergency and became very panicked.

I’m also mad that after sending us a video of how we were expected to behave because of covid, they questioned my husband at length apparently in a closed unventilated room. There were 2 of them from different households. We haven’t seen our sons since last august and are due to see them in May once they can travel and stay in hotel. Last thing I want is for DH to get covid now with 3-4 weeks to go.

AIBU to complain?

This incident aside. Going forwards if he needs to be treated like a vulnerable adult then you have to declare it to whoever is visiting or else they will assume that he is not.

Or you need to make sure that without fail you are always there when arranging appointments in future.

It's not a problem to not disclose it but you absolutely can't give him the independence to deal with anything alone. If you do you won't have any grounds for complaint as it wasn't declared.

Op, can I ask gently, is there any part of you, that feels your husbands perception of what occured may not be reality?

Logically you must know that it sounds highly unlikely an “interrogation “ took place and they were repeatedly banging on the doors etc. Is it maybe more likely this is his perception of what occured? But in reality they just asked him a few questions on subjects that needed clarification.

I do have to concur with others that walking out and leaving strangers with someone vulnerable was not a good idea when you’d not told them he lacked capacity, at the least you should have explained that under no circumstances was he to be approached and asked questions, and to contact you for that, or had someone stay with him.

I understand he doesn’t know he is ill and you don’t wish to go behind his back to inform people but sometimes you need to protect the vulnerable.

I do not understand though thr contradiction in your post. You can’t divulge he’s ill up front ans are arguing strongly you couldn’t do that, but literally now wish to do exactly that to prevent them using rhe info he provided.

I would ask them for what he said, and review it for accuracy.

Just phone them on Monday and ask to go over the questions as your husband's memory isn't great.

Also reiterate that you were advised to stay out of the way as it was a no contact visit but that the surveyors didn't follow these guidelines.

Not necessary to put in a formal complaint but I'd suggest to them that they should probably change their pre-visit message to future homeowners so it accurately reflects a standard visit.

OP this is meant kindly but the surveyor would have had no idea that the adult present was vulnerable or had MH issues. It's fine for you to keep that confidential. But then you can't complain that they asked one of the home owners questions about their own property. Your DH had a choice to tell why he would struggle to answer questions. He didn't need to do that, but the outcome will be they have no clue that his cognitive function is impacted.
So YABU re your thread title. They did not know he was vulnerable. This isn't a teaching/ learning exercise about MH / capacity. It's one about disclosure.

I don’t believe they did it intentionally to scare the hell out of him, but it happened and it did have that effect.

Why would a surveyor want to scare a homeowner ? Yes, it happened and yes, it had that effect but given that he was the only one home and IS the homeowner, it’s entirely reasonable they would ask him questions connected with the survey. They didn’t know about his MH problems did they, so how do you figure you have grounds for complaint ? I have moved home several times and have ALWAYS been questioned by buyers surveyors about something or other and i think it’s a bit unreasonable not to expect that - even when asked to stay in one room due to covid.

Your DH doesn’t have to answer surveyor questions no matter how many times questions are asked. It might be worth talking to your DH about how to end conversations abruptly (walk away?) and be immovable

I'm sorry that you are in this difficult situation but I think you are being unreasonable.
It was a mistake to leave him alone to deal with this.

I'm going to be be quite blunt here but you are the one who put your DH in this position. If your DH has issues which make him suspicious and is on anti-psychotic meds then how can you possibly know any of this is true?

So they told you a day but not a time and you agreed. You should not have accepted this. What if you were taking your DH to an appointment - you wouldn't have been able to accept it then unless you were happy to leave them alone in the house or give them a key?

It isn't unreasonable for one adult to speak to another and ask questions at all.

You say you have no right to disclose his medical health - perhaps not but you put - as you term it - a vulnerable adult in a vulnerable position.

Lastly - yes he was to stay out of the way of the surveyor however perhaps this is where the conversation through the patio doors came in.

I'm sorry - this is all at your door and you are fully responsible.

@YukoandHiro

You don't know what power of attorney means. It's literally not possible to get it before the onset of mental incapacity

You are 100% wrong. I have put lasting power of attorney in place for myself. I'm in my 60s, perfectly fit and well, and with all my faculties. My attorneys can use it with my permission, should I be physically unable to carry out my own admin (say if I was in hospital or housebound). When/if I become cognitively impaired, they will be able to use it without running things past me first.

I am an attorney for my mother who is as sharp as a tack, but paralysed after a stroke.

I did have empathy for you, OP. We had a new bathroom when my husband was unwell. I was working and he was home.

I got back one day and some horribly shoddy work had been done, which couldn't be undone. The guy had cut corners to save himself hours of work. But he'd run it past my husband who was emotionally not able to argue it, and just said fine, so that he could be left alone. So I couldn't make the fitter put it right.

I was annoyed with the fitter, frustrated with my husband (though I didn't show it) and really annoyed with myself for not recognising that I should have had it done when I could be present.

@30julytoday

Let me ask you all a question . How many of you have actually been subjected to multiple detailed questions during a survey on your home? Is this now a thing?

We have never experienced or expected that before

Both of my DDs are selling and have had surveys done this last couple of weeks. DD1 was home with a small baby, got asked several questions. DD2 sat in her car outside during her survey then got asked lots of questions outside. When we moved house my DH was home, surveyor asked him loads of questions!

@Bluntness100

Op, can I ask gently, is there any part of you, that feels your husbands perception of what occured may not be reality?

Logically you must know that it sounds highly unlikely an “interrogation “ took place and they were repeatedly banging on the doors etc. Is it maybe more likely this is his perception of what occured? But in reality they just asked him a few questions on subjects that needed clarification.

I do have to concur with others that walking out and leaving strangers with someone vulnerable was not a good idea when you’d not told them he lacked capacity, at the least you should have explained that under no circumstances was he to be approached and asked questions, and to contact you for that, or had someone stay with him.

I understand he doesn’t know he is ill and you don’t wish to go behind his back to inform people but sometimes you need to protect the vulnerable.

I do not understand though thr contradiction in your post. You can’t divulge he’s ill up front ans are arguing strongly you couldn’t do that, but literally now wish to do exactly that to prevent them using rhe info he provided.

I would ask them for what he said, and review it for accuracy.

This. I don’t understand why you arranged the survey when you couldn’t be there, or alternatively why you didn’t take your husband with you.

we’ve had POA for 25 years, before he was ill. Because it what’s sensible people do even without mental illness factored in

That’s odd as POAs weren’t introduced until 2007.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasting_power_of_attorney

[quote Soontobe60]we’ve had POA for 25 years, before he was ill. Because it what’s sensible people do even without mental illness factored in

That’s odd as POAs weren’t introduced until 2007.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasting_power_of_attorney[/quote]
If you click on the 3rd link on the page you have kindly posted to it will show lasting power of attorney' replaced 'enduring power of attorney'

"I was actually very precise based on this mha definition in stating he lacks FULL mental capacity.
.- No lawyer will do any such thing without a diagnosis from a psychiatrist to state he is mentally incapacitated in terms of completely lacking the ability to make decisions for himself- that is actually an extremely high bar to cross as anyone who has tried to have someone sectioned will know."

Bold not working now so have quoted.

You are very confused OP if you believe that the criteria for being sectioned is the same as a solicitor being satisfied that someone has capacity to give instructions and sign a contract. Once we realise or are told there may be capacity issues we have to be sure of the situation and not being Doctors that can take time. You mentioned him lacking capacity not me and there is a whole range of what that might mean. If there are questions about it we'd often ask for a letter from a Doctor saying capacity is not in issue in the situation where a DW was saying there was some sort of issue.
I'm really not clear why you felt the need to respond to my post quite so aggressively and unpleasantly. Assume you're under a lot of stress but people are trying to help you. It was meant to be helpful and it's good to hear you have the PoA if needed.

And it wasn't meant to be alarmist as you have stated.

youve made him sound like a child. Hes either an adult selling a house with you or he isnt

Thank you @rainbowthoughts, I saw that. The OP said LPA, not EPA.

Actually I stand corrected, she said POA.

Also, in your position I’d call them, explain your husband has a cognitive problem and cannot recall what he said about the property or if it was accurate, and ask them to clarify any information with you.

That way you’re not compromising his dignity or revealing details of his condition but ensuring their information is correct.

It’s normal for surveyors to ask about building work/extensions/documents.

@30julytoday we are currently applying for a remortgage and had a valuation done recently. The house is a new build of steel frame construction. Apparently there are two main types of steel framed construction methods around. One is the modern method used for our house which meets all current buildings regulations and is trouble free. The other type was used frequently in the 30s (I think) and has resulted in a lot of structural problems. Each method has a specific technical name.

The surveyor was asking DH a lot of questions and asked if the build had used type of construction. DH mistakenly thought the term he used was the one for the modern method used for our house and answered yes. Unfortunately it was the term for the old problematic method so the valuer stated in his report the construction method was unsuitable so the building was not suitable for mortgage. When we realised the mistake we told them we we had not understood his question properly but they refused to reconsider.

I feel it is really unfair homeowners, who do not have technical building expertise, are expected to answer questions like this but that seems to be the way things are now. Everyone should be very careful when answering these questions and refer them to an architect or engineer if they are in any way technical.

I know you're trying to protect him and his dignity by not disclosing his issues, but don't you realise that not telling people (professionals, who will more than likely have a policy on how to deal with vulnerable residents) has put him through a tremendous amount of stress and anguish? As you left him in the house alone a quick word in the ear of the surveyor would have avoided this.

In your situation I would be proactive, scrap the idea of a complaint, contact the surveyors and advise that DH has issues with recall/dates caused by medication and any questions regarding works/changes to the house should have been directed to me, and I'd appreciate a call with the surveyor to go over their specific queries as I'll be able to provide more detail.

@alpenguin

The only grounds for complaint is that they did not follow their own covid rules.

The mental ill health of your husband is irrelevant here because without disclosure they would not have known he was unwell and incapable of answering these questions. His lack of legal capacity would need to be disclosed to rely on that in any situation. Many people have tried to explain this to you.

I understand your anxiety at not knowing what he has told them and whether that may have a detrimental effect on the results of the survey but that anxiety is yours to deal with not the surveyors. I think perhaps guilt has a part to play here too.

Quoting MHA and giving definitions of your husbands symptoms is totally irrelevant here because without disclosure to them, it’s irrelevant to what happened with the surveyor. I know it’s not your place to disclose but it’s not their place to know something that they haven’t been told either.

Your anxiety is perfectly natural given the circumstances but getting angry at people here for trying to point out that without disclosure nobody would know isn’t resolving your issue, it’s extending the blame to others for something that has nothing to do with them, who are only answering your question. I’m sorry you don’t like their answers OP

In a nutshell 👍🏻

Wait, you left your paranoid and easily-distressed husband in your house with a stranger????! As if the moving house process won't be stressful enough for someone in his condition. Wow

@Ilovespeanuts. You are incorrect. I have power of attorney for my mum. The guidelines for both the health and welfare and the financial side of things are the same and are unequivocal - as far as possible the appointed attorney must help the donor to make decisions for themselves until such time as they lack the capacity to do so. Having a certain health condition is not in itself proof of lack of capacity, and an unwise decision should not be confused with one made through lack of capacity. So just because he has this condition, it cannot be assumed that the OPs husband lacks the capacity to make a decision or is being coerced into selling against his wishes. Ergo, there would be no reason for a solicitor not to proceed with the sale - and even if there was, it would then be too late to register a POA anyway if he’s already lost capacity.

@YukoandHiro. This is absolutely wrong. I think you’re confusing registering the POA with invoking it. In order to invoke a POA when you need to, it first has to be registered with the office of the public guardian - this has to be done BEFORE the donor loses mental capacity. This is common sense really as it’s not a decision to be taken lightly. As an example, my mum has recently been diagnosed with the onset of vascular dementia and according to the specialist she has full capacity at present. Nevertheless we were advised to take out power of attorney, which we have done and which is now registered. Mum still makes her own decisions but when the disease begins to progress I will have to invoke the POA - even then I will still have to help her make decisions for herself as far as possible, until such time as she loses full capacity and I have to take over.