Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU - England couldn’t care less about Northern Ireland

579 replies

ThisThatTheOther · 09/04/2021 08:19

Northern Ireland has seen a return to violence , petrol bombs etc every night for a week now. It’s dominated the headlines here in Ireland. People are worried as peace up north is so fragile. Listening to the radio yesterday an old advisor of Tony Blair was on to discuss. The radio host read out the top 8 listed stories on all main English sites and the violence of Northern Ireland didn’t even feature. It’s the top headline again in all major Irish publications this morning but not in English publications.

OP posts:
GreenSlide · 09/04/2021 15:46

@dreamingbohemian

I think there is a general attitude of "oh there they go again". and "will they ever grow up". They have been fighting about the same shit for so long, when they could sit down and look at moving forward.

Do people seriously not understand how patronising and offensive this is

But it's true though. Most of us here in NI are rolling our eyes at the wankers out rioting, and despairing at the pathetic politicians who are supposed to be sorting this out. It's fucking pathetic that they won't it sort it together.

LexMitior · 09/04/2021 15:46

You would think people would vote accordingly in NI; but they stick to their politicians like glue, year after year, nurturing the dislike.

Obviously this serves many people abs politicians like it. If NI did not vote sectarian the whole edifice of the place would collapse in a matter of months where they realised they were all Irish and dropped their religious obsessions.

Still, you can only assume NI politicians are very good at banging the drum for their own team. It’s a place where belief replaces opinions.

RedGoldAndGreene · 09/04/2021 15:49

I agree with pp - it depends where you get your news from. I have R4 on most of the time and it has been discussed at length for the last 4-5 days.

The riots started 10 days ago- that's a shocking lag until it became worthy of analysis.

ohnana · 09/04/2021 15:49

@Sarahtrue11 "Why don't they sit down and talk about how to move forward."

Genius! As if no one thought about talking about things and petrol bombs and violence was the first course of action....

Northern Ireland didn't have a working government for THREE YEARS because of power-sharing arguments. The politicians attempt to "sit down and talk about how to move forward" but as another poster said, NI is effectively a failed state. The government eventually got back up and running last year and sure look at the chaos...

PADH · 09/04/2021 15:50

@LexMitior

You would think people would vote accordingly in NI; but they stick to their politicians like glue, year after year, nurturing the dislike.

Obviously this serves many people abs politicians like it. If NI did not vote sectarian the whole edifice of the place would collapse in a matter of months where they realised they were all Irish and dropped their religious obsessions.

Still, you can only assume NI politicians are very good at banging the drum for their own team. It’s a place where belief replaces opinions.

Yes, absolutely.

Look at how we voted following the RHI scandal. The DUP refused to be held accountable, and still got voted in because "if you don't vote for us, you'll split the unionist vote and the Catholics will get in."

Nothing changes if nothing changes.

5566rfghh · 09/04/2021 15:52

@Sarahtrue11

What I never understood when living in the Republic of Ireland, was that there was huge, and I mean HUGE hatred towards the English, all I heard there was "I hate the English, they came over and took our land etc etc", but there was no hatred at all towards Scottish people, even though the people that took the land in Northern Ireland were Scottish, not English.

I am so sick of all this ridiculous hate between our two islands. Will we ever move on?

www.politico.eu/article/6-times-the-irish-learned-not-to-trust-london-history-brexit/amp/

Scottish settlers were mostly either gifted the stolen land from England, or granted permission from England.

This article has some of the reasons for the anti-English sentiment...

I do think you exaggerate somewhat though, the majority of Irish people do not HATE English people. Most would not agree that there is cause to hate the current generation of English people. We would say that the ignorance of the vast majority of English people relating to Ireland and the issues that prevail is shocking. And naturally it is fact, England did take our land, and have committed insurmountable atrocities against Ireland.

ohnana · 09/04/2021 15:53

@GreenSlide oh it's so true!

The only sign of these riots I've seen personally over the last few days is the increased number of police vans etc. on the road driving in the direction of the parts of the city with the violence. Most of us are just carrying about our daily lives as much as possible and completely fed up that of the politicians and their lack of leadership. They are fuelling this if anything.

5566rfghh · 09/04/2021 15:54

www.irishcentral.com/opinion/hate-english-in-ireland-brexit.

Many posters on this thread really should educate themselves. Read this, it's not too bad.

dreamingbohemian · 09/04/2021 15:59

@Sarahtrue11

You are calling the Irish people violent, foolish children. Very common attitude throughout the British Empire, whenever there was any violence in the colonies, the attitude was, what else do you expect from these uncivilised savages? They've been fighting forever and refuse to join the modern era.

And you're comfortable adopting that kind of colonial attitude toward the Irish today? It's insulting.

Ireland is not the only European country that's suffered from sectarian and ethnic violence. I guess you've never heard of the Balkans. Or the Basque terrorist groups that were around for several decades. Or any of the recent terrorist attacks on the continent.

There are very many long-running conflicts throughout the world. We could look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Kashmir, Korea -- all sorts of conflicts that have gone on for decades. Are they all just children, too dumb to know what's best for them, too stupid to prefer peace to war?

These are incredibly complicated conflicts sustained by horrific acts of violence that make peace difficult. Don't belittle them by saying they could be easily solved if people would just 'grow up'.

UhtredRagnarson · 09/04/2021 16:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Hankunamatata · 09/04/2021 16:03

@PhoenixandtheRug you do realise there was protestants in the south of the irland that were forced to move north due to partician. Lands removed and not given a choice but to move.
Hard views like yours IS the reason why northern ireland struggles to work as a place. Lots of people want integrated education for their children and for no one to be left behind regardless of religion or political views. Perhaps of teaching colleges were merged it would produce a wonderful training environment for all teachers as well as stoplight g the constant waste of money on duplication of services on sectarian grounds

Hankunamatata · 09/04/2021 16:04

Stoplight - stopping

5566rfghh · 09/04/2021 16:05

www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/english-ignorance-about-ireland-just-isn-t-funny-anymore-1.3677267?mod

Not current articles, but parts are relevant.

Eyewhisker · 09/04/2021 16:06

Agree OP. Most people in GB not only don’t care about NI, they are ignorant as to the origin of the conflict.

I’ll repeat a summary I put on another thread.

The basic problem in NI is that there are two communities that in many cases lead completely separate lives.

One community - Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist - are descended from British settlers from the 16th/17th century when England invaded Ireland and displaced much of the local population. They identify as British and have a strong British identity. Some in this community place a strong emphasis on maintaining this identity - e.g. The Orange Order when simply attending a Catholic church service (even the funeral of a friend) means expulsion.

The other community - Catholic/Nationalist/Republican - are descended from the native Irish and have an Irish identity.

The two communities have never mixed and can live totally separate lives - living in separate areas, going to separate schools, playing different sports, even listening to different radio and TV.

Each community is equally entitled to their identity.

Ireland was partitioned because at the time a majority in the northern part were from the Protestant/Unionist community and did not want independence. Britain saw them as British and prioritised their needs. They split the island based on the demands of the Unionists, ignoring local wishes. Two counties which voted for independence were included in NI to make NI larger and more viable, even though the majority in those areas wanted independence.

Within NI were a minority of Irish who were - and remain - every bit as Irish as their cousins on other sides of the border. We would not say that people in Scotland are not Scottish as they do not have independence.

Until the GFA, NI gave priority to the British identity, and in many cases actively discriminated against those from a Catholic/nationalist community. To consider yourself Irish in NI was seen as subversive by the state, even though you were living in what the world sees as Ireland.

The GFA was a real breakthrough as it gave parity of esteem. People in NI could be British or Irish or both. People are entitled to both Irish and British passports as they choose.

The border was removed so that those who wanted could feel for all practical purposes that they lived in a single country and many live in NI (cheaper) and work in the republic (better wages).

Brexit and particularly Johnson’s hard Brexit has messed this all up. Theresa May’s deal would have kept the U.K. in the single market, keeping the peace process jntact. Johnson has ignored all that and gone for a hard border. This means there has to be a border somewhere - a land border is unenforceable and will upset the Irish community, a sea border upsets the British community.

So this is all a big mess. Under the GFA NI was normalising as identity no longer mattered so much. Now when people feel their identity is under threat, all the problems re-emerge.

It is not due to religious bigotry but to national identity. If you are English, consider how it would feel if the national border was redefined so that you were no longer in England but in some other country. People’s identity matters. The Irish and British populations of NI are now equal in number, and the only solution is where both are held in equal esteem and recognised as equally legitimate.

UhtredRagnarson · 09/04/2021 16:11

You would think people would vote accordingly in NI; but they stick to their politicians like glue, year after year, nurturing the dislike.

Obviously this serves many people abs politicians like it. If NI did not vote sectarian

Are you in NI? Or at the very least ever even spoken to more than one NI person about their voting habits? Because this is really not how it is in reality. It is not black and white, them and us, shinners or DUP. There are so many people here who want both those parties to fall into a hole in the ground and never see the light of day again. Republicans who will never ever vote for Sinn Fein. Catholics who vote DUP. People want change, they want new politics and politicians with no green or orange allegiance. They want an economy and infrastructure and jobs and equality. Speak to some people perhaps?

IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021 · 09/04/2021 16:16

@5566rfghh thanks for the articles.

FinallyHere · 09/04/2021 16:21

The border in the Irish Sea or hard border between Ireland and NI were not an inevitable consequence of Brexit, they were a political decision by the EU and Irish and UK governments. Borders are avoidable - the EU insisted upon one.

Ha ha ha boing. The sound of me laughing my head off.

What price 'Brexit to control our own borders' ?

As far as brexit goes, I don't think that there is any solution that would leave all parties happy,

The morning I woke up to the result of the referendum my first thought was err , what about Island. And here we are.

FinallyHere · 09/04/2021 16:24
  • PADH The violence isn't anything to do with Brexit. It's to do with the handling of the Bobby Storey funeral. Indeed.

Rioting over that. I mean seriously! PETROL BOMBS - what the heck - whoever thinks that is right needs to examine their brain*

An internationally ratified Good Friday (Belfast Agreement) trampled on by a border down the Irish Sea. A PM who promises no paperwork and just look at the paperwork.

That's the issue, compared to which a funeral is very small beer. Especially given what happened to Dominic Cummings breaking lockdown with impunity oh, and a press conference in the Rose Garden of #10

that's the real issue

Sarahtrue11 · 09/04/2021 16:26

[quote dreamingbohemian]@Sarahtrue11

You are calling the Irish people violent, foolish children. Very common attitude throughout the British Empire, whenever there was any violence in the colonies, the attitude was, what else do you expect from these uncivilised savages? They've been fighting forever and refuse to join the modern era.

And you're comfortable adopting that kind of colonial attitude toward the Irish today? It's insulting.

Ireland is not the only European country that's suffered from sectarian and ethnic violence. I guess you've never heard of the Balkans. Or the Basque terrorist groups that were around for several decades. Or any of the recent terrorist attacks on the continent.

There are very many long-running conflicts throughout the world. We could look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Kashmir, Korea -- all sorts of conflicts that have gone on for decades. Are they all just children, too dumb to know what's best for them, too stupid to prefer peace to war?

These are incredibly complicated conflicts sustained by horrific acts of violence that make peace difficult. Don't belittle them by saying they could be easily solved if people would just 'grow up'.[/quote]
I am laughing at you, because I am Irish, which I have said several times on this thread.

Seeing as I have said that I am Irish on about four previous posts on this thread, what you have written is very strange.

maddiemookins16mum · 09/04/2021 16:33

@Thewiseoneincognito

Forgive my ignorance but why is this happening in 2021?

Why has Irish society not been able to move on and why on Earth are young people getting caught up in this? Anyone under the age of 30 is clearly continuing the hate perpetuated by their parents.

How does this stop?

Their grandparents is more likely.
DynamoKev · 09/04/2021 16:33

[quote AndromedaGal]@DynamoKev
Would that include the 40+% who voted for Brexit in NI?

Dynamo has a point. It becomes very easy on threads like these to apportion blame in one direction to fit a personal agenda - The "English," Brexit voters, The EU, The Tories. It's never as simple or as straightforward as that. It may be a mix of all these things to lesser or greater degrees, plus the disgruntled youth in those areas taking opportunity to vent after ages spent in confinement with their basic needs for social interactions and social freedoms taken away? I think this also has a large part to play in the unrest we're all witnessing at the moment.

Stating "England couldn't care less" is a sweeping generalization; as pp have pointed out, the spotlight needs to be directed onto the media, (who are reporting on it) if there's more exposure needed.

I do think it's also a bit galling to keep holding "The English" to account for colonial activities; it's an easy argument to keep harking back to but it bears no relevance in finding a solution in real time. Moving forward we now live in a modern world where we hope our politicians all work together to find and maintain peace. Most people are intelligent and educated and compassionate enough to assume a sense of collective, as well as individual responsibility for what happens.[/quote]
I'm not saying the British establishment doesn't have historical blood on it's hands - but let's remember these people are not all of us.
I got told by an American that he hated me and other English people because of the famine.
This makes zero sense - for all time before and a long time after the famine all my English ancestors were illiterate labourers with no vote. I bet they didn't even know about the famine, never mind have any way to prevent it. Yet it's the fault of "The English"

PADH · 09/04/2021 16:35

@FinallyHere

* PADH The violence isn't anything to do with Brexit. It's to do with the handling of the Bobby Storey funeral. Indeed.

Rioting over that. I mean seriously! PETROL BOMBS - what the heck - whoever thinks that is right needs to examine their brain*

An internationally ratified Good Friday (Belfast Agreement) trampled on by a border down the Irish Sea. A PM who promises no paperwork and just look at the paperwork.

That's the issue, compared to which a funeral is very small beer. Especially given what happened to Dominic Cummings breaking lockdown with impunity oh, and a press conference in the Rose Garden of #10

that's the real issue

It wasn't any funeral. It was a republican funeral, where high profile republicans and political figures, many of which belonged to IRA who are seen by many here to have gotten away with multiple murders during the troubles instead of being held to account for their crimes, where seen on TV breaking the law in a political show of strength, and the police force refused to take any action against them out of fear of repercussions.

The loyalist Community have been outraged by this decision and retaliated with violence.

The funeral is not small beer.

All your other points are valid, yes. But even without brexit, the actions around this funeral would still have sparked protests.

Sarahtrue11 · 09/04/2021 16:36

[quote ohnana]**@Sarahtrue11 "Why don't they sit down and talk about how to move forward."

Genius! As if no one thought about talking about things and petrol bombs and violence was the first course of action....

Northern Ireland didn't have a working government for THREE YEARS because of power-sharing arguments. The politicians attempt to "sit down and talk about how to move forward" but as another poster said, NI is effectively a failed state. The government eventually got back up and running last year and sure look at the chaos...[/quote]
Do you think they have done a lot to heal the situation in Northern Ireland?

There is so much more they could do. Easily. No one is doing it

dreamingbohemian · 09/04/2021 16:37

@Sarahtrue11 Yes you're the Irish person who thought living in Northern Ireland during the Troubles was 'exciting' and the British soldiers were 'lovely'

My post stands, I don't know why you would want to take on British colonial attitudes or act like Ireland is the only European country that's seen conflict recently.

It's one thing to be frustrated with people resorting to violence, it's another thing to say it's because they're too stupid and childish to know better

LexMitior · 09/04/2021 16:40

I’m been working in and out NI for years. I’m not convinced that the Alliance party and their lonely campaign for “normal” politics cuts much ice with people. They don’t get serious votes, NI is still very sectarian, people fighting because they believe they will lose out. It hadn’t changed in 25 years of going there, and I think people who don’t share the sectarian views can’t be in very great numbers or it would be a verY different country - and those that leave NI take that more reasonable attitude with them.

Swipe left for the next trending thread