‘If you look white, then you are white’- what is this now?!

[OwlBeThere]

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

@BaggoMcoys

Part of the reason it all gets so messy and complicated (and at times arguementative) is because "racial difference" is ultimately a social construct more than a physical reality

You cant point to specific genetic traits, or specific skin tones, or facial differences and categorise people reliably

I don't really understand how race is a social construct but racial differences exist - I know you said "it's a social construct more than a physcial reality" but I've seen people say it's entirely a social construct. I have read of racial differences in medicine, like likelihood of having certain diseases etc being variable depending on a person's race, and I earlier in the thread I think someone mentioned what is counted as a healthy BMI can differ based on race too. I understand that the lines can be quite arbitrarily drawn and what you said about it not being a reliable way of categorising people but I think what I'm confused about is what exactly is the physical reality side of race vs what is the social construct? Or maybe this is something to do with the difference between race and ethnicity, which is another thing I struggle to get my head around - though I've noticed it seems more common to ask about race rather than ethnic group on forms nowadays.

I guess I meant that there is a "black race" and a "white race"*. Technically (without going all kumbaya) we are all one race (and a variety of shades of pink, taupe, brown). But the kind of people that say that are often the kinds of people who "dont see colour" (which isnt helpful). Ultimately although it is a social construct, it is "real" because of peoples actions in the past and now.

*and if you fall between these two categories or dont fit neatly in either then you are very Inconsiderate

@Coronawireless...disingenuous how? I truly don’t understand how you’ve reached that conclusion. I have acknowledged that I’m less likely to experience racism in the street than someone darker than me, but it has happened. I have a Japanese name that was butchered daily at school and been asked if I minded being called something else, I was called ‘that ch*nk girl’ all the time as a child. I’ve had people talk to me like I don’t speak English. Assumed I lived i a Chinese restaurant. Been called slitty eyed. Had abuse thrown at me about corona virus.
I am pale skinned and tall, but I have plenty of Japanese features, so the fact this guy decided on the basis of ONE photo that I was white, blew my mind.

To answer the question about how many generations removed you have to be to claim a heritage...I was born in Japan to a Japanese mother, Japanese was my first language, I have a Japanese passport. So I don’t know, but I’m pretty damn sure I can claim it.
One person deciding I look white doesn’t mean I do to everyone. And certainly I was not white enough for it to be obvious to everyone where I grew up. So my experience isn’t that of a whirs person, cos no one else in my school had Kung fu fighting played at them every day for 6 months by lads who thought they were funny.

A lot of people don't like the "you are black etc. even if you pass as white" because they think it harks back to the "one-drop rule" where if anybody in your family was black, then you were counted as black by default and made a slave.

I don't really understand why the races get split like Black, White, Asian? When Asia is a continent, and obviously not everyone in Asia looks the same (Indian Vs Japanese for example). Of course you could be Black and Asian tko...Wouldn't European, African, and Asian make more sense... but then, you can be Black and European, White and African

Irish never used to be considered White even though they have White skin... But then, you could also be Irish and be Black, so...

Race, ethnicity, nationality, is really quite messy.

@KoshkaKills

I don't really understand why the races get split like Black, White, Asian? When Asia is a continent, and obviously not everyone in Asia looks the same (Indian Vs Japanese for example). Of course you could be Black and Asian tko...Wouldn't European, African, and Asian make more sense... but then, you can be Black and European, White and African

Irish never used to be considered White even though they have White skin... But then, you could also be Irish and be Black, so...

Race, ethnicity, nationality, is really quite messy.

Egypt is in Africa and most people wouldn't think of Arabs as African. The black people I work with hate being called "African" as a category. Especially as most were born here and some have never set foot on African ground. Definitely very messy!

Irish never used to be considered White even though they have White skin...

I don't think there is any reliable evidence to support this was ever the case

Koshka
DH is North African and probably of Arab descent but many of his friends are Berber that predate the Arabs. Some Berbers look Arab some look black African. They spread across a number of countries in Africa.

It is messy indeed.

The irish were always white but they were certainly subjected to signs - "no Irish" as indeed have white English people in places like Wales. I am about 40% Irish genes and 36% Scottish and the rest mostly English with tiny bit from Norway (which is probably the ancestors on Orkney and possible NE England as the Vikings were up there) and about 3% Neanderthal genes. However we are all from Africa originally - the homeland of us all.

@Flaxmeadow

Irish never used to be considered White even though they have White skin...

I don't think there is any reliable evidence to support this was ever the case

The Americans had restrictions on what Irish immigrants were allowed to do. Voting/Owning/working are three guesses.

I'm Irish, and an American poster on mumsnet once mocked me that I didn't know the Irish weren't considered 'white' in America in the late 1800s! But really, it's not our responsibility to research other countries' history of racism, is it?! And 'white' was an economic class back then.

Although I've heard about this since and looked in to it. It's interesting. I remember learning about how the Irish used their tendency to congregate, parish style to support each other and build their own collective strength in order to rise up an economic class. They did teach this in school, but I don't remember the non-white thing. Only learnt that after I left school.

@Coronawireless care to reply what you think I’m being disingenuous about?

People are idiots.. I am.mixed race, White and Caribbean. DH is white and my children when not next to me one would assume were 100% white. Next to children that ARE white you can clearly see they have some mixed heritage by the skin tone alone. This doesn't bother me AT ALL, I might add I wouldn't care if they were purple. I have had teachers double take and be like Wow that's YOUR mum.....

My husband doesn't believe that people really are overly racist at times...but he's a 40yo white man so....what would he know!

I'm mixed race Irish and Indian. Like the OP I look white until I get a bit of sun. I've had comments about how me and my children "look exotic" so I guess some people can tell, and I remember my ex-DH's elderly grandmother being cross with the family for not warning her how dark I was.

It's not all about the individual direct experience though, is it. My Irish side of the family were definitely at a disadvantage in the 1950s and 1960s, with my mum being sent to elocution lessons to eradicate all traces of an accent so she wouldn't be harassed. My grandfather found it hard to get any kind of work. And some my dad's side of the family were restricted to certain kinds of work in India. I didn't experience any of that personally, but the effects trickle down, I'm sure. It seems too simplistic to think that structural racism only affects people on an individual level.

My Dneice and Dnephew are half white English, 1/4 black 1/4 white Spanish. They have olive skin, curly hair but don't have any features from their black grandparent. They mostly look like my white English brother. My parents insist they are 100% white but I dispute that. They sre mixed! Why should they deny themselves their rich Latin and Carribbean heritage because they "just pass" for white? It's a relic of the past. We should be able to say, this is who I am, this is how I identify myself, and its not for you to tell me any different!

I'm mixed race. I've always found filing out the ethnicity forms highlights this.

I am mixed white British and indo Caribbean but raised completely English (pub every Sunday, working class style)
I look completely Indian with brown skin.
Skin colour seems to be the most important definition of 'who you have to be' in the U.K. ie if you are white that's the end of it but everything else has a special tick box

When completing a lot of forms including government ones there is often an option of white British. But when you go onto boxes like Asian British or 'mixed' I often wonder how many mixed people just tick white British if they are white as it's a much easier and simple option for those that don't bother about their heritage. I've had friends with no British background ticking it as it's the first box for example and no one would question that.

The other way around tbh, I'd like to tick white British for my dd who is 3/4 white British and 1/4 indo Caribbean but culturally we only know the British/English side of things but I can't because she's brown.

It's very complicated in the U.K. and why do you have to be Asian British or black British etc. Why is there no plain 'British' box unless it really is necessary to be defined by these terms.
I don't really understand this, my friend is Indian and raised in Germany and said they don't have these terms there.I don't know if that's true though.

Good points although sometimes white British (that is mine) is right down the form amongst others and is hard to find I have found even though most people in the UK are white British which sometimes I felt was a nuisance, bit like all those websites for people in the Uk where you have to click down a country list to UK below UAE almost at the end yet almost every customer is from the Uk so why not put that first?

@shinytrees, I don’t know about Germany but in France, you will find NO MENTION AT ALL of race or religion (let alone on any other admin forms).
This is a left over of WW2 and the wish to never ever again label people according to race/religion.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the same in Germany.

[quote OwlBeThere]@Coronawireless care to reply what you think I’m being disingenuous about?[/quote]
Well in your OP you seem to swing between two points. One is that you look Chinese and had people make comments to about that. On the other hand you say you are “white passing” and your phenotype is white.
If the latter, or if most people do not harass you because of your race, then having a few comments here and there does not equate to what many people have to put up with on a daily basis, including being refused a job or a place to live and being physically assaulted.

UK organisations collect data on ethnicity so patterns and disparities can be recognised and addressed. I think it's good this data is collected, although it's a bit of a blunt instrument, and results can be used in unhelpful ways sometimes.

Corona - the OP said that in her life she has frequently experienced racist comments due to her Japanese features.

Someone on TikTok dismissed her because her skin colour is light. Her actual life experiences have included racism.

@Xenia see the attached doc. It's this kind of thing. This is an nhs form.
A number of my friends when filling things out like this will simply tick white British I know this only because when we were at university it's a constant trail of forms and when someone was white regardless of where they came from they'd simply tick white British if they were raised here, a choice not afforded to someone like me raised here consider myself British but not 'British' according to a lot of documentation.
Also not British in the U.K. due to the colour of my skin in numerous situations but that would take over the thread.

OP My sister is white and I know what you mean. It's difficult as my sister has actually used passing as white to her advantage on many occasions such as job interviews and fitting in so sometimes other people can assume it's a benefit as well.
Until summertime when my sister tans and then she's back to being 'exotic'

@shinytrees - I'm mixed white and Greek Cypriot for which there is never a box, just white /other.

I think British as a nationality is often collected on another section of these forms though. E.G. the question about were you born in the UK, or do you have the right to permanently reside/ work in the UK. In that sense British is recorded, regardless of colour or ethnic background.

Isn’t the whole issue down to the obsession with some to rank people according to their oppression?

Don’t get me wrong like OP acknowledges there can be differences in discrimination if someone is lighter skinned than others in a group as some might perceive them as white.

However I think there’s too much emphasis on ranking people than actually addressing issues.

*Coronawireo3ss" that was breathtaking, in all the wrong ways.

I assume you've confused the OP with me, because I'm mixed Chinese and white, and the OP is mixed Japanese and white. You do realise there is a difference?... Its like you were white British and I said you were Portuguese, or Estonian, or Greek...

You really think that racism against people who don't have dark skin isn't so serious, don't you? You simply cannot conceptualise, despite it being explained multiple times, that there are more than 2 races in the world other than black and white, and because of that, there are other features that identify race other than akin colour.

I don't really know how to address that level of obstinacy y and diminishing of people's direct expe riences of racism.

@Charley50 what would you record yourself on that form out of interest would you put white mixed

I don't think this form really clarifies you're British thereafter. It does ask for first language but English is my mother's first language and she's not British. It also asks for religion. Again not so helpful with regards to race. I think if people are so used to finding a box relevant to them they don't realise how difficult this exercise can be despite it being a regular part of living in the U.K.

Yes, we deliberated for ages on the census for DS1s "sense of national identity"
(he's 5) We ended up putting something completely different to his ethnicity.