‘If you look white, then you are white’- what is this now?!

[OwlBeThere]

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

Playing up probably just means using something to your advantage as is right that many of us do - life is hard enough without using any cards that help you in life. I am from NE England. I could play the card if I needed to - family down the mines aged 10 in the 1800s, ancestors driven from Ireland by famine, immigrant roots or even the fact of Catholicism - still looked down on in the UK compared with Protestants.

"Playing up" sounds like a nasty term but perhaps rightly used against someone eg who is white but pretends to be black to gain some advantage.

whenthebellsring so excited to tell my kids that they’re just ramping up their “otherness” so they can enjoy being victims. I mean, they’ve been racially abused since before ether even knew what race was, but it’s absolutely them with the shitty attitudes!

Fucking hell

Well I asked for an example

As you have apparently been witness to people ramping up their Asian side

Do you think it’s strange that people speak out when they hear yet again racist and prejudice remarks (of course it’s never about my family ). Do you think it’s strange that I may speak differently and to some extent be different when I am with one side of the family to the other. Do you think it’s strange that my role in my family is different on each side because they are two very different cultures but both are as much part of me

If you are going to make such statements that are quite frankly insulting at least back them up with examples

And do you not think when I hear the nastiest racist comments which I have heard many over the years I don’t hurt I don’t feel protective over my elderly dad

Playing up" sounds like a nasty term but perhaps rightly used against someone eg who is white but pretends to be black to gain some advantage

That is not what is being discussed on this on thread

Xenia, yes. It means that too as well as the other words I've used to describe it. Though I fail to see how it's nasty. Simply means emphasise or bring to the forefront. At least, that's what I mean.

The knee-jerk, nit-picking, offence-taking by some people for no reason isn't impressive and I pay it no mind.

And the example ?

I think the issue on TikTok/with young people generally is that it is currently very fashionable to have some sort of victimhood. Therefore its assumed that "white-looking" people have that as their motivation when identifying themselves as another ethnicity. Never mind the fact that a mixed-race person may wish to recognise all aspects of their heritage when describing themselves.

Do you think it’s strange that I may speak differently and to some extent be different when I am with one side of the family to the other

No.

Do you think it’s strange that my role in my family is different on each side because they are two very different cultures but both are as much part of me

No.

As you have apparently been witness to people ramping up their Asian side

Give me a moment, let me find a way to get you into my memories to see what I've been part of and witnessed. If you can't wait, there's always Google or YouTube. I also learned about some things that way, if you genuinely want to know.

Assuming you don't already know, that is, but playing "Gotcha" games based on your assumption of who I am, which I frankly don't have the time or energy for.

The attitude of, if you look white then you are white is all over TikTok at the moment, along with if your use a meme of a black person or emoji that isn’t white and you look white yourself you’re a horrible racist.

I thought you had witnessed this

That is not quite the same as watching something on YouTube

Don't get me started, back in the summer I was told by a whole group of "wokes" that as I have white skin I absolutely categorically cannot experience racism, only black people can.

I'm very pale, but very clearly Asian, apparently all those insults that made my childhood hell weren't racism.

Again, I'd suggest reading to understand rather than reading to reply.

I wrote "also", which suggests both. I also wrote "know and have observed" in one of my posts which should suggest both.

I also wrote "been part of and witnessed", which suggest both.

Been part of and witnessed

So you have ramped up your Asian side ?

I still have no idea what this means

@Nothingyet

If someone has white Caucasian ethnicity, can they identify as black? Or vice versa? In the same way as people can identify with another gender. Well, why not? You might get the odd quizzical look, as do the people in dresses with stubble and Adam's apples, but so what?

Quite.

Well, as “quite” as that may be, that’s not what this thread is about, is it?

Someone who is ethnically white but identifying as black is not the same as someone who is mixed race, who passes for one race more than the other, but still experiences racism due to skin colour or facial features. Like the example of my dcs that I gave above, which you have dismissed/“paid no mind” to as apparently lived experiences of mixed race people are somehow.. not relevant?

It’s completely different

A trans person is based on feelings a person who is white but feels they identify with being black/Asian whatever is based on their feelings

Being mixed heritage is what you are. That’s why I am more predisposed to some medical issues that my mother is not because of who I am not what I feel

A trans women will never have to have a smear test and I will never have prostrate cancer no matter how male I or any other female may feel

Part of the reason it all gets so messy and complicated (and at times arguementative) is because "racial difference" is ultimately a social construct more than a physical reality. BUT a really really key part of this is that JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT DOES NOT MEAN IT DOESNT EXIST. e.g. the concept of money is an entirely social construct, it relies on our imaginations to be a thing. But that doesnt mean it doesnt affect all our lives all the time. In fact most of the reality we live in (good or bad) is a construct of human imagination - that doesnt make it not real. Only a rich person can argue money doesnt matter, only someone with inherent privilege could argue that race doesnt matter because its a social construct. However, because the boundaries are based on human imagination, it gets very very complicated trying to work out who is what and who is affected in diferent ways and who can call themselves what in the real world. You cant point to specific genetic traits, or specific skin tones, or facial differences and categorise people reliably (if you try it all gets very wierd very fast). And our idea of what constitutes a "different" race varies. In the 16th century English people explicitly described the Irish as being a different race and understood them as such. Of course, there are extremes - "very black" and "very pale" that you could hold up. I could never "identify" as black because Im not. And people from certain areas can be more likely to suffer specific illneses. But most people don't fall into categories easily. So you get these messy arguments. I don't know what the solution is.

@OhWhyNot Sorry - I totally didnt mean to say that who you are isnt real, or relevant. Of course who your mother is and your father is and their ancestors have a hige impact on who you are and your health (and lots of things). Its not just "feelings".

The problem with Tik Tok, Twitter etc. is that you can’t really have nuanced conversations about complex subjects like race and other aspects of identity. ‘You’re white if you look white’ is similar to the TWAW #nodebate nonsense.

Emphasising is probably a more accurate word. We all tend to emphasise things that helps us fit in whether that be talking about our sports interests to an interview how likes sports rather than going on about Christianity or Islam if he is obviously a different religion. It is the way everyone fits in with everyone. If it helps gets you a university place to mention that factor that's fine if that is the rules, but don't lie (like some of those pretending to live near a popular school who lie).

(In fact inthe USA Indians and Chinese etc are given fewer college places because they do so much better (because in my view they work harder) than whites and blacks which is extremely unfair so in that sense if they were Chinese/Black it would be the Black side you would "ramp up" to gain the positive discrimination advantage not the Chinese side whereas if you were going to see your future mother in law who is Chinese you might well bring along your photos of your own Chinese grandparents)

The difference is when you grow up being called "darkie" by family, that was my nickname in the 80s, when you are asked about your heritage by school friends before self tan and contouring and filters.

Part of the reason it all gets so messy and complicated (and at times arguementative) is because "racial difference" is ultimately a social construct more than a physical reality

You cant point to specific genetic traits, or specific skin tones, or facial differences and categorise people reliably

I don't really understand how race is a social construct but racial differences exist - I know you said "it's a social construct more than a physcial reality" but I've seen people say it's entirely a social construct. I have read of racial differences in medicine, like likelihood of having certain diseases etc being variable depending on a person's race, and I earlier in the thread I think someone mentioned what is counted as a healthy BMI can differ based on race too. I understand that the lines can be quite arbitrarily drawn and what you said about it not being a reliable way of categorising people but I think what I'm confused about is what exactly is the physical reality side of race vs what is the social construct? Or maybe this is something to do with the difference between race and ethnicity, which is another thing I struggle to get my head around - though I've noticed it seems more common to ask about race rather than ethnic group on forms nowadays.

The thing about racial differences in medecine, is that even they arent cut and dried. For example, sickle cell disease is associated strongly with people from specific areas of Africa. However... there have been cases of white English people, with white parents, dianosed with sickle cell disease - it turns out that, unbeknownst to them, they had african ancestry on both sides of their family tree and against the odds the recessive gene had been passed down on both sides. You could hardly argue they were "black" though. Healthy BMI is another one where you could say, overall, people from a certain area are likely to be healthy at a different weight/grow to a different height than people from abother area but when you get down to specific individuals you can find all kinds of exceptions. Saying "this person's physical condition can be explained by the fact they are X race" is as inherently dangerous as ignoring their genetic background altogether. And also, of course, BMI might depend on genetic backgound but it doesnt depend at all on a simple black/white. Someone from Kenya's healthy BMI would likely be entirely different to someone from Samoa for example. I am short and have a low BMI in the (European) country I live in. I am entirely average by white English standards.
So it isnt that differences dont exist, you can assert things at a general/population level. But at an individual level it all starts to break down very quickly. And what your genes/genetic predisposition to illness say can be very different to the identity you hold or others ascribe to you. I guess thats what I meant by socially constructed.