‘If you look white, then you are white’- what is this now?!

[OwlBeThere]

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

As you can TikTok can be great...

Should be say, not can! What a strange autocorrect.

Oh ffs. And wind up merchants, not wind up merchandise.

From where I am- very white area- people are ignorant and clueless to anything like this. People are too scared to ask and learn and understand about people's heritages and identities because they don't know how to talk about it without being or coming accross as racist. But now a lot of black people say they should have to pander to ignorant white people and they're absolutely right. However I know many people who still need anyone like you to stand up and tell what you want people to understand. It's so important. Don't let your identify get hidden because it's awkward to talk about

Yes, same experiences here OP, except my grandmother is Chinese. Same skin as you - very pale but tan so quickly in the sun. I need Asian fit sunglasses and swimming googles and have fulll on epicanthic folds and eye shape with dark eyes.

I am almost embarrassed to say I'm mixed race, because like a lot of mixed race Asian and white peoole, I pass for white (think Alexa Chung). Asian flush so can't drink alcohol and am short. I get so many negative remarks about my eyes or height or eye colour from people thinking it's OK because I'm white. I get asked "which country are you from?" in almost every European country I visit.

People tell me I "look quite Asian" withiut realising I am. Chinese people can tell I am. But it's online where the biggest abuse is. Some other non whites can be very aggressive to part Asian people and try to dismiss you for not being mixed enough. Its incredibly racist.

I have a friend who is also 1/4 Chinese who doesn't even bother to tell 0eople because they accuse her ii making it up.

I suspect a lot of it has to do with the ignoring of Asian people or people of North Asian descent in the debate on race. Yiu see so many black people on TV, but hardly any north Asians.

I wonder if this is an aspect of how some people view identity in terms of political/social issues? You know, sort of taking the notion of amplifying the voice of lived experience and ring fencing accordingly? I've noticed it in other discussions eg who is poor enough to count as poor, who is sufficiently disabled to count as disabled, is that woman really a single parent if her ex has the kiddies at the weekend, sort of thing.

Obviously not the same at all in terms of either context or outcome but it feels like a similar motivation.

@newstart1337

How many generations have to pass before you stop being defined by your descendants skin colour and you start being defined by your actual skin colour?

How can you be discriminated against because of the colour of your skin if everyone perceives your skin to be white a particular 'colour'?

By rude remarks about your eye shape, eye colour, inability to drink alcohol, etc. Do you want me to elaborate, or can you imagine the comments about eyes? By being accused of lying about your own genetic heritage. I've lost count of the times I've been accused of having "cheek implants" or a nose job.

I’m sorry to everyone who posted who has to deal with such nonsense.

On the flip side, I am white, but have deep olive skin and dark hair as I’m half Italian. During my childhood, I was called—both randomly on the street and in school—a terrorist, the p-word etc. etc. My dad looks Middle Eastern, and when I was a kid, guaranteed he would be pulled aside for extra checks at the airport.

So, while I’m white and very aware of my privileges, I have experienced a frightening amount of racism. It’s an odd thing, really, and I don’t quite know how to process it.

@CirclesWithinCircles sounds like people are jealous because you have the cheeks and eyes that cost thousands for woman to achieve. It hadnt actually occurred to me about the lack of Asian role models in films tv etc. it's definitely becoming more normal for black people now though still has a long way to go but actually Asian diversity is incredibly poor. And I'm so ashamed I hadn't realised before

It all gets a bit grey. I’m in North America where, people proudly discuss their ancestral heritage of 300 years ago and East Indians (yes an acceptable term) want to be known as brown I don’t know any who consider themselves bme.
So when on a global forum like MN or TicTok, other perspectives will confuse some.

@LunaHeather me too! But there some very very interesting creators on there who are so eloquent and knowledgeable about things that it gives me hope that not all Gen Z kids are kardashian obsessed irritants

@fallfallfall yes, I see that, there was an interesting discussion on the different connotations of ‘coloured’ in South Africa v the USA, so I can recognise cultural differences affect how we see things.
@DogsAreShit I think there is definite element of young people wanting to give voice to minorities, but then over zealously taking that too far and actually achieving the opposite of what they sang to achieve.

I have Arabic, middle eastern and Sephardi roots, so have a mixed ethnic and religious background. I do look pale skinned, very European white. There are actually various Levantine people and North African tribes that appear white and many even have green eyes and red hair. People only realise that I am mixed race when they see some of my family. In my early years, I lived in the Middle East and probably was in the minority looks wise but it had never been an issue. I think there is a bit of a fashionable trend now to (over) emphasise one’s mixed-race status but it feels bit disingenuous when you have completely passed as white and never really faced any potential challenges nor were treated any different. Those with darker skin and more obvious features cannot just switch it off. I have found while at Uni that those that looked fairly white often seemed the most vociferous and far more engaged in race issues/debates especially around white people and to me it felt at times, a bit like trying too hard. Sometimes, it isn’t even about outright hostile racism but being aware that in some European countries, especially in rural areas, those from ethnic minorities really stand out and may create a lot of attention. They cannot just blend in. I was on a trip in Bavaria, close to the Czech border with a cousin who got many stares and encountered a subtle different attitude to myself. So, you can tick all of the ethnic boxes you like but if you look white, you will be considered so.

Yanbu at all, OP. Of course your heritage is important, regardless of what you look like.

My dd is mixed race (50% white, 50% South Asian). I think it's pretty obvious to most people, but we occasionally encounter some people who are surprised to find that she isn't white. Fortunately, she has not experienced a great deal of racism herself but she is hyperaware of it as an issue because she has seen her dad's experience of it on many occasions.

The "white passing" thing is interesting. For some people, I think white is just so much the default that they just don't notice the evidence of other ethnicities unless it's really, really obvious. Others are much more aware and identify mixed heritage quite easily. Meghan Markle is a good example of this - there are so many people who claim not to have realised that she was mixed race, even when it's blindingly obvious to others.

I was furious when she was younger, and a white acquaintance commented that she "could almost pass as one of us". I told him that she was "one of us", whatever that was supposed to mean. Silly fuckwit.

I read about this years ago
It's interesting.

I think there are specific situations where being "white-passing" is more influential than your actual heritage. I saw a clip of an American woman saying something like "the race that matters is the race the policeman sees when he pulls me over." She explained that her father was African American, but someone who saw her briefly (like a police officer) wouldn't know that, and so would treat her with the same respect as he would treat a white person.

But of course that doesn't negate the racism that you do experience, and the colour of your skin doesn't change how Japanese you are. It must be extremely frustrating to be told you're not Japanese or that you've never experienced racism when you know you have!

@AlexaShutUp I never saw Megan Markell as mixed race then once I knew it was quite obvious. Her son is then quarter black would he identify as black.
The white passing phrase makes sense as I don't think MM would have got where she is know if she looked darker.

Not read the whole thread.

This idea comes from America. Jim crow, one drop etc.

The way that USA ideas are being picked up and universalised is weird.

It also ignores /trivialises

Anti semitism
Atrocities like srebrenica

It's cultural hegemony. And it's shite TBH

@caramellia

From where I am- very white area- people are ignorant and clueless to anything like this. People are too scared to ask and learn and understand about people's heritages and identities because they don't know how to talk about it without being or coming accross as racist. But now a lot of black people say they should have to pander to ignorant white people and they're absolutely right. However I know many people who still need anyone like you to stand up and tell what you want people to understand. It's so important. Don't let your identify get hidden because it's awkward to talk about

Those sound like very sweeping statements. "Very white area where people are ignorant and clueless"...."People too scared to ask and learn and understand...because they don't know how to talk about it without being or coming across as racist....now a lot of black people say they should (not) have to pander to ignorant white people."

I'm assuming that there are some white people who aren't ignorant though? Isn't prejudice between Asians and Black people sometimes rather high?

"polls generally show that minority groups hold racially prejudiced attitudes or opinions towards other minorities. This tendency is clearly demonstrated through some polls that are considered as somehow reliable. A national poll commissioned by the National Conference of Christians and Jews reveals the adoption of stereotypes by minorities towards other minority group. Indeed, according to that poll, 46 % of Hispanics and 42% of Blacks view the Asians as “unscrupulous, crafty and devious in business(“Polls of minorities”).
Secondly, generally people believe that Hispanics “tend to have bigger families than they are able to support.” 68% of Asians and 49% of blacks hold that view. Lastly, 31% of Asians and 28% of Hispanics think that Blacks “want to live on welfare” (“Polls of Minorities”). What can be deduced from that survey is that minorities widely share prejudiced opinions towards other minority groups. In fact, they tend to be even more prejudiced than the whites themselves which is an alarming reality. fac.umc.edu.dz/fll/images/expressions/Naima-HARBI.pdf

the different researches existing on the issue corroborate to conclude that these phenomena are on the rise.
Thus, their significance should not be overlooked for several reasons. First, it proves that even minority members may be guilty of prejudice, a defect generally and exclusively attributed to the white majority. Even if the minority members cannot be racists since lacking power, they do nevertheless hold prejudiced attitudes towards members of other minorities. According to surveys, they tend to be even more prejudiced than the white majority itself. (ibid).

I'd argue that it should, in fact, be described as racism.

This comes down in large part to what is race and what is ethnicity.

To a large extent your ethnicity, the plethora of strands of ancestors your DNA comes from, is objective. Your ancestors are your ancestors, your family is your family. It doesn't matter if you look like them, you are materially linked to them they are part of you. Now, you can get into questions around how you define populations and such which is complicated because people move around over time and have a lot of indiscriminate sex, even with other human species, but that's probably beyond the scope of what we are talking about. It would make no sense to say you don't have Japanese heritage no matter what you look like.

Race on the other hand is constructed, defined by a given society in order to divide people in a way that is advantageous for some and disadvantageous for others, the characteristics used to do this can vary and are often in themselves arbitrary. If someone said they were white in another time and place it could mean something different or quite possibly simply be a meaningless statement.

So when people say that someone who looks white is white, what they are saying is that if society sees you as white, and treats you as white, you are white according to what defines whiteness, which is the wider culture. That being said, it's pretty shallow to think that is the only signal people have as to what race category they treat people as, as evidenced by the fact that kids in our school saw you as non-white. So it's kind of weird to say your experience is the same as other kids in your community when it's clearly not.

But I'd generally don't think we should put in too much effort as a society to maintain race categories, given that they exist in order to rate people hierarchically.

I’m in North America where, people proudly discuss their ancestral heritage of 300 years ago

Which is all a bit silly really.

Genealogy is interesting, but to build your whole identity on one ancestor, who lived in a vastly different time period and was from a country you have probably never even visited doesn't make much sense

@Defaultname probably sounds very generalized but I'm just relating to my experience of people I know and that's why I said that. I would hope most white people are not like this. I'm not sure I have actually come across an Asian person and a black person in the same areas to see any racism between other cultures. Must exist but I have no first hand experience so need threads like this to enlighten me really

The daughter of an acquaintance has straight blonde hair, pale skin and looks white, despite her father being African American. Her father is also pretty well known, but her parents are separated and not huge social media users, so not many people make the connection.

Her perspective is an interesting one - people are continually amazed to learn that she is mixed race. Her brother looks much more like his father.

Unsurprisingly, attractive 'white' teenage girls and Black teenage boys are treated very differently in virtually every environment you can think of.

YANBU. Mine are half British white/half Hispanic Native N. American. DD1 and DS present as entirely white - white skin, green or hazel eyes, light brown hair. DD2 presents as olive skinned, with very light straight hair and is commonly mistaken as half Asian. Her boyfriend is mixed race Afro-Caribbean/British white. The only first cousin on my mother's side is also half British white/half Hispanic Native N. American (this was all due to military families). He has bright red hair and hazel eyes. His son by a British white woman has dark olive skin, dark brown hair and eyes.

Nearly everyone on my mother's side are Navy/sailors.

If someone has white Caucasian ethnicity, can they identify as black? Or vice versa? In the same way as people can identify with another gender. Well, why not? You might get the odd quizzical look, as do the people in dresses with stubble and Adam's apples, but so what?