‘If you look white, then you are white’- what is this now?!

[OwlBeThere]

I’ll start this by saying this is a conversation I had on tiktok. Yes,it’s mostly younger people on that app, but there is also some fantastic political discourse and discussion around linguistics which is my field so that’s what I use it for.

I am mixed race. My mother is Asian (Japanese), my dad is Welsh. I have the kind of skin that is very pale until I see the sun then I tan quickly. I don’t ‘look’ very obviously Asian, I suppose. I do have very straight, very dark hair from my mother, and I do have a relatively flat bridge to my nose. In my welsh village where I was raised from age 4 (born in Japan, moved to Denmark when I was 2, then to wales) I was ‘that Chinese kid’ a lot in the 80s, I had my share of casual racism thrown my way. I speak Japanese, welsh and English.
All that backstory is just to explain why I was completely baffled when in a discussion around racism I was told that because my ‘phenotype’ is white and I’m ‘white passing’ then I am white and have no business taking part in a discussion on racism as I’ve ‘probably never experienced it’.
Many people ask me my heritage, so I think it’s pretty clear to most people that I’m mixed in some way because otherwise they wouldn’t ask, right?
Have any other people mixed race people come across this as a thing? This phenotype argument that appears to negate half of my family?!

@Devlesko I’m well aware of indentureship in the Caribbean. They worked on the same plantations yes but had rights, were not owned, it was for a fixed term, received payment at the end of their contracts, they were no a third of a person, were allowed to speak of their history I could go on but the point is to bring this up in a discussion about racism in modern Britain is highly offensive because all it does it to create a false narrative that working class white people experience/d the same disadvantage

When for decades legal and mainstream descriptions of what constitutes racism have largely prioritised a white perspective it’s not unfair to say now the white perspective needs to be de prioritised. On social media what I see a lot of is minority people expressing their experience and the disadvantage that results, to then be told by a white person they’re wrong. That’s not ok because naturally a persons understanding of what racism is, how disadvantage manifests from these incidents and how racism has evolved is limited if it is not something you experience. Yes prejudice against white people exists. Pretending, that in the UK it is as impactful as systemic racism suffered by minorities (which has always included travellers and Jewish people) is disingenuous. If you don’t understand why a situation is described as racist, try listening or doing some research on it to understand why (even if it’s unintentional) it might be considered racist.

I do agree no one should be dictating to people of mixed heritage how they should identify, that’s out of order. However, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume your experience of racism might be different and to be mindful of that.

[quote BluesInTheSun]@Devlesko I’m well aware of indentureship in the Caribbean. They worked on the same plantations yes but had rights, were not owned, it was for a fixed term, received payment at the end of their contracts, they were no a third of a person, were allowed to speak of their history I could go on but the point is to bring this up in a discussion about racism in modern Britain is highly offensive because all it does it to create a false narrative that working class white people experience/d the same disadvantage[/quote]
You could go on to say that, post-slavery, they received less knock-backs to their own attempts to improve their situation. Black history, particulaly in the US itself (although also the Caribean - see how far Toussaint Louvertures attempts to negotiate on an equal basis with the French got him) has numerous instances of people working hard and succeeding - and then being punished for that success (e.g. Tulsa).
Thats exactly my point - comparing those two situations and how they differed and were similar draws facts like those out into the light.
I get that most black people will be well aware of those facts already, and probably tired of having to explain that history to others. The danger is however, that if we say "these comparisons should not be made ever" then it leaves other people uninformed. That actually created more space for toxic narratives such as "white people were also indentured servants in the ealy days of the US and they made successes of themselves so black people must just be lazy etc etc etc" to creep in and infect the uninformed.
I agree that it is quite tangengential to racism in modern Britain - but this whole thread has had quite a broad scope...

Of course, horribly, many many people did not get the opportunity to have "descendants" on whom to pass on a legacy (toxic or otherwise) The working conditions in the Carribean were so horrific that sadly for many it equated to a death sentance anyway.

[quote BluesInTheSun]@Devlesko I’m well aware of indentureship in the Caribbean. They worked on the same plantations yes but had rights, were not owned, it was for a fixed term, received payment at the end of their contracts, they were no a third of a person, were allowed to speak of their history I could go on but the point is to bring this up in a discussion about racism in modern Britain is highly offensive because all it does it to create a false narrative that working class white people experience/d the same disadvantage[/quote]
I'm sorry but they didn't. They had no rights and were sold by the Church of England. Their owners were paid when the slaves were freed. It wasn't for a fixed term and they were freed at the same time as slavery ceased.
I think it's highly offensive to not acknowledge that Romany suffered exactly the same, and who would my ancestors have told, except their own race. Nobody would have listened or cared, they don't now.
I find it offensive that Romany did experience the same disadvantages and still are, especially through Europe.
I'm certainly not talking about white working class, I'm talking about a race that is still experiencing racism today.
The difference is for Romany it's actually accepted by society and politicians use us to gain votes, it's that endemic in our society.
No other group witnesses the same as Romany in Britain because it wouldn't be tolerated.
That's not to say racism doesn't exist for other races in this country, of course it does, but the racism isn't enforced by law.

I lso suspect that the details about being indentured for a fixed period of time and receiving "payment" at the end applies more broadly to Irish indentured servants but not to the roma "prisoners" who were there as criminals (the crime committed being that they were travellers). I think they had different (no) rights. I could be wrong though - it is a confusing subject and devlesko might know more.

Overall I agree with pretty much everything you say @BluesInTheSun so I hope it doesnt seem like I am trying to nit-pick unnecessarily. But the British treatment of travellers is such a specific and delicate subject. I would put it outside general whataboutery.

@Devlesko sorry - cross posted. I was too busy checking for typos.

I’m mixed Asian/White English

I don’t look Asian but like many people I know who have a similar mix we can look like we are from a number of places, Turkish, Iranian, Spanish, Hispanic.

I wouldn’t say personally I have suffered from racism but certainly from othering. Growing up constantly asked where I’m from now that we are so much more mixed I get asked less but very often from people who’s background is not white British

Unfortunately I have also been privy to hearing many conversations that I do not think would have be had in front of me if they were aware that my father is Asian. When pointed out that they could be talking about my dad/nanny/aunt/cousin etc I always of course get the reply no we don’t mean like your family many of my family wear saris (for occasions) eat curry most days and head waggle when they talk so yes you do mean my family - it’s very hurtful especially knowing what my dad went through

And I hate the talk about mixed race/heritage children being exotic ffs was called this as a child it’s horrible I didn’t want to be constantly pointed out I looked a bit different

I apologise if my posts sound like "whataboutery" I wouldn't make a comparison if there wasn't one.
I also know it was on a far lesser scale as obviously there are/ were fewer Romany than Black people experiencing slavery.
However, it did happen and is part of our history and did inform our future.
Fewer of us are taking the vaccine, because of our history and lack of trust in governments.
Finally considered a race, many are only just realising their history and ancestry, and now more are accessing further education/ higher ed, they are spreading the word and educating society. This with recent tech in DNA and linguistics, we are able to trace right back 1,500 years to India and Persia/ Iran.

It doesn’t matter what colour your skin is, everyone can experience racism.

I’m white, I’ve experienced it. When I moved abroad and got a job, I was abused because I was white and taken a job from a more deserving local, native/indigenous person. I had people refusing to deal whit a white person who wasn’t from that country.

Growing up in a northern town was regularly abused by Asian men just because I walked down the street and because I was white I was obviously a slag and a whore, the fact I was a teenager in school uniform didn’t stop them, it just made it worse as I was a white Catholic schoolgirl.

My parents are Irish, the Irish have experienced centuries of racism from the British. When my parents and grandparents moved to England the signs in the shops said No Blacks, No Dogs and NO IRISH! And that racism still exists today but that is never talked about and is dismissed on the basis that our skin is white.

How many white Eastern European’s and other Europeans have experienced racism in England?

I would like to know what ramping up my Asian side means too

@newstart1337

How many generations have to pass before you stop being defined by your descendants skin colour and you start being defined by your actual skin colour?

How can you be discriminated against because of the colour of your skin if everyone perceives your skin to be white a particular 'colour'?

I agree and I think the OP is being disingenuous.

@AnotherKrampus

I have Arabic, middle eastern and Sephardi roots, so have a mixed ethnic and religious background. I do look pale skinned, very European white. There are actually various Levantine people and North African tribes that appear white and many even have green eyes and red hair. People only realise that I am mixed race when they see some of my family. In my early years, I lived in the Middle East and probably was in the minority looks wise but it had never been an issue. I think there is a bit of a fashionable trend now to (over) emphasise one’s mixed-race status but it feels bit disingenuous when you have completely passed as white and never really faced any potential challenges nor were treated any different. Those with darker skin and more obvious features cannot just switch it off. I have found while at Uni that those that looked fairly white often seemed the most vociferous and far more engaged in race issues/debates especially around white people and to me it felt at times, a bit like trying too hard. Sometimes, it isn’t even about outright hostile racism but being aware that in some European countries, especially in rural areas, those from ethnic minorities really stand out and may create a lot of attention. They cannot just blend in. I was on a trip in Bavaria, close to the Czech border with a cousin who got many stares and encountered a subtle different attitude to myself. So, you can tick all of the ethnic boxes you like but if you look white, you will be considered so.

This sums up my opinion too. People wanting the attention of being a victim without actually suffering the reality of it.

@OhWhyNot

I would like to know what ramping up my Asian side means too

Me too, plus is it all Asians, or just South Asians, or East Asians, or South East Asians.

Interesting that this phrase is being nit-picked. Would have given more thought to it if I knew it would take over and unnecessarily cause a stir, especially as it was used for lack of a better phrase at the time of writing.

I wonder if some people have either deliberately or genuinely missed where I wrote the pronoun, some, before I mentioned the suddenly-infamous phrase, "ramp up". This should've been taken to mean every single mixed race person in Asia or the world isn't included - That was my intention when I knowingly wrote "some other mixed race people". Some do do that, some don't. People do it for different reasons too.

Incase it's genuinely hard to understand, even given the context, I meant "ramp up" in this case as play up/highlight/align more with/over emphasise/talk more about and even exaggerate.

Hope that answers the question.

However we are allowed to state the law - that you can be white or blue or black of whatever and anyone can be the victim of racism. We have not reached a situation where only one colour can be victims of racism or indeed racists under the law. The law is equal and that is just as well.

"Ramping up" a particular attribute is not surprising. Eg for some US colleges if you are even an 8th native American or black you might qualify for an assistance programme to get in just as in the UK if you go to one of the 40% worst state schools (vast number) you qualify for the lower grades Bristol university entrance system so people not surprisingly try to use the system to help their children which in my view is a moral right - not wrong - doing right by your own children from feeding them well to cuddling them to trying to get them into the best school is a wonderful thing for a parent to do, not a wicked thing.

The law is equal and that is just as well

Yes, equality is key

Coronawirless I agree and I think the OP is being disingenuous.

Really awful comment and it is you who is being disingenious. Do you think being called a "slitty eyed chink" is based on skin colour?

FFS.

Yes, "ramping up" is done for different reasons and by different people really. Some reasons are more serious than others; some are seen as "right" or "good" compared to others. I agree in some cases, it's not a wicked thing to do.

To be clear, I actually don't think I've made a specific judgement on "ramping up" itself because there's usually more to it than a simple 'for' or 'against'. Just wrote what I know and have observed.

When we look at Racism in Britain I believe Irish Travellers receive the most overt racism. It's absolutely disgusting.
I know little of their culture but through activism and campaigning fight their corner as much as Romany.
You only have to look at the media, new Police bill, and businesses to see the sheer scale of it.
Channel 5 have a new series starting on Wednesday, it would be good to think it won't be the same racist narrative, but I'm not holding my breathe.
I'm meeting a cousin tomorrow to shop in Primark, haven't seen her in so long. Chances are we will be followed round and searched, it's embarrasing.

Coronawireless
Quite a pair of nasty comments there from you showing a fair whack of ignorance.

My dc are mixed white and East Asian. Oldest has darker skin like his dad, youngest is pale like me. Can you comprehend why both have been called “slitty eyes ch*nks”, when one has white skin? Any other possible facial features that people might be judging on?

newstart1337

How can you be discriminated against because of the colour of your skin if everyone perceives your skin to be white a particular 'colour'?

I guess my question needs to go to you too.

How do I play up to being part Asian

Cook curry, wear a bindi,

What is your example of playing up ?

I don't know how you do or even if you do it at all. Only you would know, so don't have the answer you seek.

I married a gaudga, non Romany and none of our dc are too much into the culture.
I mean they've travelled with us, but as grown ups live more of a gaudga lifestyle, which is fine.
However, dd has shown an interest but not enough imo to identify as Romany, yet she intends to for college applications.
I have told her she needs to study our history, languages, and culture before I would be happy for her to do so, because otherwise she's pretending to be something she isn't to gain an advantage.
I sympathise as the direction she is taking colleges take on less than 5 people in her discipline each year, but it's no excuse.
So she is having a test from me before she completes the applications.