To insist my staff have childcare in place?

[willandgrace]

Several of the staff I manage have young kids, we've supported them all year to WFH with kids at home. We are still primarily working from home but as schools/childcare are now open I have said that people need to have appropriate childcare in place while working from home, the same as they would have if they were office based (as they all were previously) - some of the staff are not happy about this but AIBU?

It’s a really tough one OP. Where I live, although schools and morning/after school clubs are back up and running - holiday clubs most definitely are not. Where I live, there ablre usually around 4 or 5 local holiday clubs to choose from. Now there is one with significantly reduced numbers. It was full when I tried to book. Grandparents have not yet had both jabs, so won’t form a childcare bubble - plus I usually have the option to swap between friends/grandparents for childcare. Can’t do that now as restricted to one ‘childcare bubble’. This year, DH and I have booked most of the easter hols as annual leave but I couldn’t book it all as I was needed in work - but had no chilcare (and not for want of tryjng). So for 2 days, DH and I are having to muddle through - I am starting work at 4am to get a good chunk done before DD wakes. It’s bloody horrible.

I like the 'core hours' suggestion I may introduce that - the nature of the calls it's really not appropriate to have ongoing interruptions.
If bubbles burst we would be supportive - I realise that may sound hypocritical but staff don't have the option of childcare in those circumstances and it's time limited.
Not a reverse - my kids are older/adult, I do remember the stress of childcare well though, not in these circumstances though which is why I asked. The nature of the organisation it's not just a matter of 'managing productivity' client calls need to be done at particular times, there's nothing I can do about that and the nature of some people's roles is primarily client call focused.
Would I really be at risk of indirect discrimination claim by expecting staff to have to same childcare provision in place as they would if they were in the office?

@MysticMeggy

YANBU at all OP. I imagine those who say you are, are pisstaking similarly. It’s not enough that people are saving time and money on commuting by WFH but they want to save even more money on childcare and expect to be paid full whack whilst not doing their job properly!

Whilst schools were closed and parents were having to homeschool, it was unavoidable. Nurseries were open all the way through so pre school children should have been in there. If before and after school care is an issue, then staff should expect to reduce their hours and get paid accordingly. For school holidays like now, they should have taken holiday themselves although holiday clubs are running in our area. If parents are choosing not to put their children in nursery or school then they can’t work and should resign.

I have several colleagues like this and as someone who had to change career for less hours and lower pay due to childcare issues pre pandemic with absolutely no leeway. I think they’re cheeky fuckers quite frankly.

I am doing my job properly and arent saving on childcare as I never paid for it. Grandparents helped us out.

Is this a reverse?

Assuming not - as PP have explained, many childcare places have been lost as businesses folded. There is the added issue of bubbles being burst and children having to self isolate.

I think you need to be patient and in the meantime update your policies.

YANBU. Whether someone is working from home or in the office, they are unable to provide childcare because - you know - they are WORKING! So that is an absolutely reasonable requirement. DH works from home but is constantly on the phone, zooms, or doing spreadsheets etc. He'd not be able to look after DS and do his job at the same time. Mine is a more a creative job that doesn't require constant "presence" per say, but I can't deal with distraction so no way I'd have DS around either.

@willandgrace

I like the 'core hours' suggestion I may introduce that - the nature of the calls it's really not appropriate to have ongoing interruptions. If bubbles burst we would be supportive - I realise that may sound hypocritical but staff don't have the option of childcare in those circumstances and it's time limited. Not a reverse - my kids are older/adult, I do remember the stress of childcare well though, not in these circumstances though which is why I asked. The nature of the organisation it's not just a matter of 'managing productivity' client calls need to be done at particular times, there's nothing I can do about that and the nature of some people's roles is primarily client call focused. Would I really be at risk of indirect discrimination claim by expecting staff to have to same childcare provision in place as they would if they were in the office?

You still haven't said the ages of the children you expect to have childcare in place for op?

@willandgrace

I like the 'core hours' suggestion I may introduce that - the nature of the calls it's really not appropriate to have ongoing interruptions. If bubbles burst we would be supportive - I realise that may sound hypocritical but staff don't have the option of childcare in those circumstances and it's time limited. Not a reverse - my kids are older/adult, I do remember the stress of childcare well though, not in these circumstances though which is why I asked. The nature of the organisation it's not just a matter of 'managing productivity' client calls need to be done at particular times, there's nothing I can do about that and the nature of some people's roles is primarily client call focused. Would I really be at risk of indirect discrimination claim by expecting staff to have to same childcare provision in place as they would if they were in the office?

My job is primarily call focused (or at least was so initially before I stepped up but then reverted to that during the initial madness of the pandemic) and I was fine doing it with my oldest around, no issue. Do you know there are issues? How do you know? I'd be putting to the team the expectations - timing of calls, quality of calls etc and performing appropriate call quality checks. If the expectation is that they shouldnt be disturbed during work then make that clear. But as I mentioned having primary aged kids around doesn't have to be disruptive and others may get distracted by the postman/their pets/the Alexa/repeated trips to get a cuppa/biscuits etc etc. Just outline your expectations and follow through.

"In terms of what age, our office is open but staff aren't required to attend yet, the age limit is 'if you can leave them alone if you are required to attend the office you don't need childcare', the same as if they were office based "

That makes some sense, but there's quite a big stage at which children do not need direct supervision but do need there to be someone in the house. That particularly applies for the after-school slot - very many children can occupy themselves between school and the end of the working day, and you can see why people might resent paying out for after-school care, particularly if that involves mixing with children outside their normal bubble.

UserTwice's suggestion that people can discuss variations with their line manager might be the best approach - presumably line managers could make a judgement, knowing what they've seen of the colleague's work when the children have been at home, and they could also monitor how it goes. Often a good compromise would be that no childcare is needed after school, but it is in the holidays.

Difficult one. If the quality of work has dropped then you may have a case. I don't pay for child care, but then quality of my work hasn't dropped either.

@willandgrace

I like the 'core hours' suggestion I may introduce that - the nature of the calls it's really not appropriate to have ongoing interruptions. If bubbles burst we would be supportive - I realise that may sound hypocritical but staff don't have the option of childcare in those circumstances and it's time limited. Not a reverse - my kids are older/adult, I do remember the stress of childcare well though, not in these circumstances though which is why I asked. The nature of the organisation it's not just a matter of 'managing productivity' client calls need to be done at particular times, there's nothing I can do about that and the nature of some people's roles is primarily client call focused. Would I really be at risk of indirect discrimination claim by expecting staff to have to same childcare provision in place as they would if they were in the office?

In this pandemic, you would be.

Can you do something about the calls so that people have set times to receive or make them, so everyone does their share on a rota to minimise disruptions? As above, you need to manage performance and focus on childcare at a later date.

I think it will take several months for childcare to be as available as it was. Because of this you need to be flexible with your employees still I think.

Oh and in answer to your question re discrim - yes possibly as you don't need to ban children, instead you need to outline what the work requires / what staff need to achieve and let them work out how to do this (or manage them out if they don't).
Children aren't the only source of distraction or indeed a necessary source of distraction.

@Rukaya

If they have children under 5, childcare for pre school children has been open for everyone throughout this lockdown (I am a childcare provider and have been working as normal)

No it hasn't

It has!! There was a great sigh of relief in January when the Government stated Early Years childcare in England would continue as usual and be open to all, without having to close like we had to during the first lockdown in March last year, unless we had children of keyworkers

I think purely because we are in a pandemic and things aren’t normal YABU

If this carries on long term absolutely address it... I also wonder how you would feel of your children where younger and you were struggling to juggle childcare and working.

But if you are 100% the people working with you are just choosing not to use readily available childcare then that’s different.

Not everyone has bubbles and some people might not have anyone they can ask for help. Having an unsupportive manager will just be the rotten cherry on top

I think they aren't happy because they don't want to pay for childcare when they are at home
This is the reality for many who claim issues with childcare or that they do as good a job with their kids around. When you get to save up to £1,000 a month it's very tempting to try desperate to make the arrangement permanent.

YANBU at all to expect it as standard. If an employee has specific issues and there genuinely are absolutely no alternatives despite every attempts to find one and it's temporaey, then maybe some allocations can be made, but otherwise, the business doesn't owe employees to make their life easier and disposable income bigger.

@CandyflossKid not where we live. Many of our nurseries were unable to survive lockdown and have closed down entirely. I should know, I worked at one of them!

Can't believe people think you're being unreasonable. You're paying them to work not provide childcare as well. Just because you're homeworking doesn't mean the expectations are different to the office. Yes be flexible, but staff shouldn't be doing childcare during paid hours

The thing is, even if they do lie about childcare and their productivity is down, then you go down that route, this is by saying, if you want to work from home, there should be no excuse fo your productivity to be down, if you can't do it from home, then you will be office base and if you are still down on productivity then we manage you from that.

Yes, I think it's reasonable to expect that your employees don't have children home that they are providing childcare for the bulk of their working hours. I think have my oldest (8) home with me after school and on school holidays. It doesn't generally affect my working as she just watches tv and I don't see her during that time really. But the afterschool club is not running currently as bubbles can't mix (nor is holiday club) and normally I would be allowed to work in the office, so I would work 3 long days in the office and not be interrupted by the school runs. Since I'm already stuck at home (my employer does not allow us to come into the office), it makes sense that I spread by hours differently over the week, so I do shorter days with the school runs rather than 3 long days. This has worked well enough and my employer is supportive of flexible working generally. Realistically, I already work more than my contracted hours and am quite productive.

But there are childcare options out there and I would not expect people to be working the bulk of their working hours with small children at home as standard. Exceptions are for self-isolation or school/nursery closures, when there are no other options, but these should be short-term.

But if you are 100% the people working with you are just choosing not to use readily available childcare then that’s different
The onus is on the employee to evidence that there really is no alternative and the reason is Covid. It's not for the employer to be 100% certain they can find childcare to demand it.

@Rukaya

If they have children under 5, childcare for pre school children has been open for everyone throughout this lockdown (I am a childcare provider and have been working as normal)

No it hasn't

I also work in childcare and believe this to be the case? We've been open to all, inc none key worker children

YANBU but people have become used to not paying for childcare and don't want to.

Those of us without children in my team are no longer picking up the slack. We did when childcare was unavailable but now we have to prioritise our health and wellbeing.

@willandgrace

I like the 'core hours' suggestion I may introduce that - the nature of the calls it's really not appropriate to have ongoing interruptions. If bubbles burst we would be supportive - I realise that may sound hypocritical but staff don't have the option of childcare in those circumstances and it's time limited. Not a reverse - my kids are older/adult, I do remember the stress of childcare well though, not in these circumstances though which is why I asked. The nature of the organisation it's not just a matter of 'managing productivity' client calls need to be done at particular times, there's nothing I can do about that and the nature of some people's roles is primarily client call focused. Would I really be at risk of indirect discrimination claim by expecting staff to have to same childcare provision in place as they would if they were in the office?

When it comes to discrimination, I think the issue is forcing your staff to divulge whether or not they have children. Employers are not allowed to ask if employees have/plan to have children. In order to ask for proof of childcare, you’d need to ask your staff to confirm they have children. I suspect that might put you on dodgey ground, if someone was to take it further (I’m not an expert though. Happy to be corrected!)

My employer has been totally flexible due to COVID but my contract explicitly states that childcare needs to be in place for WFH. It is a totally normal clause.

Those that are switching to full time WFH will have new contracts with this drawn in. It is not possible to work with small children around.

I would expect leniency until at least 21st June though and planned RtO dates if the road map carries on as planned.

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable but I don’t think you can take a blanket approach and short term you need to be a little flexible. What is your position on home working long term?

I’m a manager wfh since the start of the pandemic and have 2 children 5&7. 100% childcare should be in place if you’re going to be working from home going forwards post the pandemic as no one can realistically work efficiently with young children in the house. However childcare is still patchy as the pandemic runs on particularly wrap around provisions and holiday clubs so some flexibility is needed.

Currently at my school we have no breakfast club so I’m now starting a little later and my husband doing pick ups from after school club so I can work later (although even with him in the house they still come and find me and can disturb calls - not ideal but it’s their house too). Similarly Holiday clubs are really limited at the moment and Grandparents who’d normally help are too far away and don’t want to travel and stay over during the pandemic. Easter has been managed by me and my husband splitting leave and one day where We both worked and the kids had a tv and computer day as we both had meetings we just couldn’t rearrange.

It’s not ideal but my boss knows I work hard and into the evening to keep on top of things and so is happy with it and I take a similar approach with my staff. Flexibility and understanding goes a long way and I find gets the best out of people. I think the bigger issue is where your staff are being unproductive whether that be for childcare or other issues and that’s what needs specifically addressing individually