Woman 80s, Savaged to Death by Dogs, Birmingham

[Flaxmeadow]

A woman in her 80s has been savaged to death by neighbours dogs
Am I being unreasonable to want much stricter controls on keeping dogs as pets

I don't know the ins and outs but here's my thoughts.
The owner should be made responsible for securing their property and make sure that there is zero chance that the dogs can get out.
I very much doubt that the owner was a nice guy at all.
It is his fault for what happened.
Why do people keep these bloody dogs.
I hope he is banned from ever keeping a pet I also hope he doesn't have children.
Don't care how judgemental that makes me sound.

@Handsoffstrikesagain

Oh yes I know about the banned breeds sunflower I was referring back to something I said yesterday that there are many dogs not on that list that shouldn’t be available to the public. It of course doesn’t stop the argument regarding bites from labs/spaniels etc, there’s just a lot of crap dog ownership out there in general.

I agree there's a lot of bad ownership but I don't understand why banning breeds would help.

Lots of people are bitten every year by,/: you say, lovely family dogs like labs and spaniels so banning breeds like the Belgian Malinois or Rottweiler won't actually change the statistics all that much.

If you want to improve the number of dog bites then education and better breeding is the answer, not just randomly banning dogs based on what they look like.

@Thatsmycupoftea I’m so sorry you are living with this terrifying situation. Have you reported to your local dog warden and the police? It’s an offence to not have your dogs under control so that neighbour is breaking the law and it’s possible that something can be done.

I would absolutely never trust any dog or any owner who claims that their dog is ‘soft’ and ‘wouldn’t hurt a fly’

Nobody should. Any dog has the ability to turn at any moment - they're animals not robots. People who leave their dogs unattended around their children because "they're soft as butter" is an idiot.

If you can't supervise, then separate.

Chihuahuas are pretty aggressive in my experience, many small dogs are. They are just easier to control, due to their small size.

I completely agree any dog can be dangerous but what I was specifically freaked out by were the incidents of bull breed dogs breaking or digging through fences to attack neighbours in their own gardens. I’ve only seen stories of pit bulls or other bull breeds doing this.

Agree and that's why they should be banned.

When I was a kid, we had two very gentle staffs who I don't believe would ever have harmed us.
I still wouldn't trust a staff (or any other dog, breed and size irrelevant). A dog is fine until it's not. It's not worth the risk- especilly around children, no matter how well trained.

@Dugee

Chihuahuas are pretty aggressive in my experience, many small dogs are. They are just easier to control, due to their small size.

IME, the smaller dogs are more likely to bite/attack, but they can be controlled easily and don't usually do huge damage. The big dogs attack less often, but with much more severe outcomes.

@2021ismyyear

Cats. Umm how many people are killed by cats each year?

The poster opined that no one should be getting a dog “in a time of climate emergency” due to their carbon paw print. If that’s true, surely it applies to cats?

This is such a distressing and upsetting story - first of all, the poor lady, what a terrible death and her poor family. Sincere condolences. I am a dog lover and owner and I do not blame the dogs involved BUT - they need to be destroyed, the owner needs to go to prison and these type of big, powerful dogs should rightly be banned. Whilst I do not know whether these dogs are more aggressive than a smaller family pet - just look at their physique, the size of them, the teeth, the muscular body. It is like saying 'oh, I have a pet lion, it is so tame'. Nope - they might be lovely pets but any dog is capable of an attack in the right circumstances. I have a rescue, medium sized dog which obviously has staffie in him. I have had him 6 years, I do not have young kids and if young kids visit I would never ever leave them unaccompanied with him or any dog, it is not safe. He has never ever shown aggression to anyone but he is strong, he is excitable, he could knock small kids over - so he is never off lead unless in our secure garden or in a secure dog field we pay to use. My daughter is now thinking of having kids - I would not let him near a young child and I would strictly supervise him near any child - and he is a 'nice ' dog but he is strong and muscular. Dogs are dogs - they are potentially dangerous, they need a lot of care and training and still they can never ever be trusted completely and it is just not true to say a dog bite from a labrador or poodle is the same as a pit bull - pit bulls are so strong no-one would have a chance against one. Getting a dog is a massive responsibility for many years to come - years of insurance, walking, training, paying for kennels etc. I would welcome compulsory licences, training and insurance for anyone wanting a dog as well as a complete ban on any dog sales online and strict rules about breeding. Not just for the safety of humans but out of kindness to dogs who after all are just animals.

I have a bit of an issue with this because I have two dogs that are from a breed that I bet you would say needs to be banned. However if you look at the facts there has only been one incident with that sort of dog in the last 50 years and it was ruled that the owner was having a fit and the dog was trying to pick her up like a mother with a pup. Her 22 month old baby was also in the room unharmed. My breed of dog has been bred these days to be a family dog not a guard dog (in America they have breed them differently though). My point is that people make assumptions about breeds without having the facts. I have no issue applying for a licence - and I have no doubt I would get one - but this should apply to all dogs not just those that people think are aggressive breeds. I also have two little dogs who are frankly much more skittish. It is my opinion that the smaller dogs are worse because people don't feel the need to train them as well (being jumped up in by a big dog is a no but people with little dogs seem to think it's OK). My point is you can't judge dogs by their breeds. These dogs were apparently kept in a shed and never let out. It's how they are trained and treated that makes a difference

IME, the smaller dogs are more likely to bite/attack, but they can be controlled easily and don't usually do huge damage. The big dogs attack less often, but with much more severe outcomes.

Exactly right and the outcome is more or less severe depending on the type of large dog.

A woman in my local park has a chihuahua. It's a little shit and always off the lead, harassing bigger dogs. It's going to get bitten at some point. She told me her last dog got run over when it was off the lead. Says it all.

@gottakeeponmovin

I have a bit of an issue with this because I have two dogs that are from a breed that I bet you would say needs to be banned. However if you look at the facts there has only been one incident with that sort of dog in the last 50 years and it was ruled that the owner was having a fit and the dog was trying to pick her up like a mother with a pup. Her 22 month old baby was also in the room unharmed. My breed of dog has been bred these days to be a family dog not a guard dog (in America they have breed them differently though). My point is that people make assumptions about breeds without having the facts. I have no issue applying for a licence - and I have no doubt I would get one - but this should apply to all dogs not just those that people think are aggressive breeds. I also have two little dogs who are frankly much more skittish. It is my opinion that the smaller dogs are worse because people don't feel the need to train them as well (being jumped up in by a big dog is a no but people with little dogs seem to think it's OK). My point is you can't judge dogs by their breeds. These dogs were apparently kept in a shed and never let out. It's how they are trained and treated that makes a difference

I kind of agree, and I think it's a catch 22. I think the "typical" kind of person who is likely to own a large and aggressive dog is the problem, not the breed, IYSWIM. As I said upthread, as a kid we had two staffs who were gentle and placid. I've also had family who have had other large dogs who were well trained gentle giants. I think the problem is that a certain type of person is likely to want a large and aggressive breed as a status symbol, and those types of people are not likely to invest in training their dogs. Of course not all owners of those dogs are like that, I would say it's a minority.

It’s true about socialisation and training and really, basic care making a big difference Gottakeeponmovin. Unfortunately the physique of these dogs is attractive to fuckwits who want something to look ‘hard’. Agressive idiots aren’t going to pick chihuahuas or labradors to walk on a chain or to fight other dogs. Heavily muscled, strong dogs need more training and care because what’s annoying behaviour in a toy breed, like lunging and barking at the postman, is potentially dangerous and frightening in a larger breed. Instead they too often get people who shouldn’t be allowed to own a goldfish.

What the RSPCA has to say about breed specific legislation. Again I agree we need a legislative change around dog ownership but focusing on breed is not the way to do it.

'Whether or not a dog is aggressive can be influenced by factors such as how they are bred and reared and experiences throughout their life. Breed is not a good predictor of risk of aggression. And, despite the legislation, dog bites in the UK continue to increase.'

'Breed specific legislation not only fails to protect public safety, but has also resulted in the suffering and destruction of hundreds of dogs, that are deemed 'dangerous' simply because of how they look.'

'There is no specific research to demonstrate that dogs bred for fighting are naturally aggressive towards people or that they are unique in the way they can bite'

www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/bsl

The owner should be locked up so he can never own dogs again. The dogs are dangerous and should be put down. A poor woman died in her own garden- there are no ifs or buts about this.

I think the problem is that a certain type of person is likely to want a large and aggressive breed as a status symbol, and those types of people are not likely to invest in training their dogs.

I would go further and say that in some cases the type of people you are talking about actually train their dogs to be aggressive, I have met a couple of people like that, they enjoy intimidating people with their aggressive pet.

In most other cases I believe dogs become the way they do through abuse, benign neglect or owner incompetence. The number of people I meet with poorly disciplined dogs that seem to think their dogs behaviour is just what dogs do and they are powerless to change it is staggering. I've also met quite a number of people who have dogs with behavioural issues who recruit the services of a trainer but then don't follow through on the advice they are given. These people often tell me the dog does everything the trainer tells it to but won't listen to a word they say so they give up.

Duncan is just one of many. It's heart breaking. The law needs to change, it doesn't work, it hasn't kept the public safe, dog attacks have increased, We need dog legislation that focuses on owners, holding them accountable with something that can actually be enforced by police and local wardens.


Duncan the gentle giant
Duncan was brought to us as an injured stray. Unfortunately the Status Dogs Unit (SDU) confirmed he was of type and would have to be euthanised after serving his stray days. Staff who dealt with Duncan described him as a gentle giant who was very well behaved. He knew basic commands and had he been another type of dog would had made a great companion to someone. The law meant Duncan was denied that chance. Duncan was PTS as the law will not allow him to be rehomed.

@Dugee

I completely agree any dog can be dangerous but what I was specifically freaked out by were the incidents of bull breed dogs breaking or digging through fences to attack neighbours in their own gardens. I’ve only seen stories of pit bulls or other bull breeds doing this.

Agree and that's why they should be banned.

You want to ban an entire breed of dog based on what you've read on Facebook and in the tabloids. 🙄🤦‍♂️

How about we start listening to the ones who know what they're taking about? That being the canine professionals, canine behaviourists, animal welfare organisations like the BlueCross and RSPCA...

We need dog legislation that focuses on owners, holding them accountable with something that can actually be enforced by police and local wardens.

This^ x10. I think it's enforcement that is the issue. Responsible owners will quickly comply with new owner specific legislation but so much that is wrong with dog breeding/ownership goes on under the radar or is ignored. How do we change this?

The dogs who killed Lucille Downer were kept in a shed, the owner said they had recently replaced fencing but the dogs managed to destroy a fence panel behind the shed to gain access to her garden. The police have refused to comment about whether there had been any previous complaints about the dogs, this suggests to me that there probably had been or they would have said so. How many missed opportunities were there to take action which might have prevented Lucille's death.

That video is utterly heartbreaking.

When people go on about how bull breeds are over represented in the list of fatal attacks they fail to recognise that a staffie crossed with another breed still looks like a staffie.

'It is also unfortunate that when Staffy's are crossed with other breeds they tend to resemble the Staffordshire, more than the dogs they are crossed with.'

Often dogs are identified as staffies when they are in fact cross breeds. Not that there's anything wrong with crosses, I have one myself.

Also I hear people justify the Labrador bite statistics because they are so many of them but the same logic applies to staffies. The staffie is hugely popular, and when you add in all the crosses then their numbers increase exponentially

Then there's the disproportionate amount of staffies in rescue. The dogs are more likely to have been mistreated which can lead to behavioural problems. It's sad that the breed does attract idiot owners but banning the breed will just lead to idiots owners moving onto a different type of dog. Maybe it's time to legislate the idiots owners rather than focusing on dog breeds?

Or you could just ban all large dogs and we will all own chihuahuas? But still watch them around small children as I am sure they could fatally injure if left unsupervised...

www.doglistener.co.uk/choosing/staffie.shtml

I don't find any of this sad story one bit amusing. That poor lady and her family.
Why do certain people defend these hideous dogs and whats with all the whataboutery regarding labradors?

There is a particular type of person who favours these ghastly pitbulls. A toxic combination and the bloody dogs should be culled.

How in Gods name can you compare a nip from a small dog to a murder committed by dogs bred to kill bulls? Its utter madness.

NC for this because possibly outing if linked to other things I've posted. It's awful this has happened, that poor lady

I love animals but I would agree with PP who have suggested a complete ban on bigger breeds. I don't think anyone should be allowed to own a dog which isn't easily restrainable by one person if the situation warrants it. My best friend has an American bulldog. It's not aggressive at all but the bloody thing is enormous and it's only just over one so not even fully grown. With it being so young, it jumps on visitors in excitement and knocks me into a wall with ease.

It was fine while it was a small puppy, but as it's grown I've found myself increasingly uncomfortable and I no longer feel safe to take my DS into the house. It's not that the dog has ever shown any signs of aggression, but they're unpredictable and if anything were to go wrong, there is no way a person could pull off an animal so big and strong. Tbh, I've been grateful for covid because I haven't had to make excuses not to go round

Yes it's the fuckwit owners who are to blame, but unfortunately these fuckwits want to own certain breeds of dogs, if we can't ban/euthanize the fuckwits, we have to ban/euthanize the dogs. Even if you force them to have a special license, force them to attend training or whatever, you can't force fuckwits to actually behave responsibly all the time.

Bull breeds were bred to bait bulls. Yes, but using this fact to justify some of the hatred on this thread is nonsensical. There are hundreds of dog breeds that have been bred to hunt, many of which have been bred to hunt larger mammals such as foxes, feral pigs, badgers, ect, where's the calls for them to be banned?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_dog

Again I think there is some classism at play here.