Please help, school exclusion.

[Blossomplease6]

I’m aware this is the wrong board but I need advice quickly and the sen boards are slow and quieter.
My son, 8, is I think on the verge of being expelled from school. I’m so scared, he would be devastated. I’m terrified of him having to go to a bee school who don’t understand him and he would be heartbroken and scared.
He has no diagnosis, we’re waiting for camhs at the moment. He’s having meltdowns at school, which can be quite violent and are aimed at teachers. Never students. We can’t work out why, there are triggers but normally small things that shouldn’t cause such a breakdown.
Where do I stand legally? I have a meeting coming up and I just think they’re going to say they can’t cope with him anymore. He wasn’t like this before. There’s always been issues, and meltdowns at school but he was never violent until his first stint in keyworker school last year. That then stopped when he returned to normal school in September. But has restarted again after Xmas and the latest lockdown.

He was leaving class and because there is no ta he was left to just wander round. Then would end up getting into trouble for climbing and things. So they’ve moved him into sen class and it’s really set off a chain of events. He’s not coping.what he needed was 1:1 support in the classroom. He’s perfectly able to be in class. As he has been throughout until lockdown.

Have a look at all the stuff on SEN in the school exclusions guidance - assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/921405/20170831_Exclusion_Stat_guidance_Web_version.pdf. There's a lot of emphasis on how schools must show that exclusion is absolutely the last resort, and that in particular they've taken expert advice about children with SEN and taken steps to get extra support, including by applying for an EHC needs assessment. Obviously this school hasn't done that.

Take a copy of the guidance to any meeting and ask them to set out exactly what they have done to comply with it. Point out that they are aware that he has SEN even if they don't know the precise diagnosis, and therefore an exclusion would be discrimination on the basis of disability.

Make sure that you have someone with you for the meeting, both for support and to take detailed notes. Afterwards, produce and circulate your own minutes, recording in particular any agreed actions that the school will take. If they say that, for instance, they will get specialist advice or apply for an EHCP, pin them down to a timescale and note it in your minutes.

@Blossomplease6

Apologies if you’ve misunderstood. He is not in class. He is in a small sen class and has never had an outburst in class. The violent episodes are recent, and are only after staff have physically touched him. Not saying they shouldn’t, as it was obviously necessary but just a bit of context.

I don’t know if you missed my post about Positive Touch training, OP?

Here’s an example of what the training entails:

servicesforschools.surreycc.gov.uk/Event/130495

@MinnieMous3 it definitely isn’t hes fault. He isn’t enjoying it or doing it on purpose. No, the outburst are not his only problem. He highly likely has asd, adhd or both. Also, no, I do not discipline him at home for outbursts he can not control due to his needs. What would that achieve?
He’s been fine in school never an issue with violence until lockdown. He’s gone from home school, to key worker, to normal, back to key worker, back to normal, then to sen class. This is a lot for any child, let alone one for sen. He needs time and support. He’s lashing out to stop people from touching him, nothing else.

You say it ‘isn’t his fault’, do you discipline him firmly but fairly?

This is like saying "when your child refuses to get out of his wheelchair, do you discipline him firmly but fairly?"

I have a child with undiagnosed SEND in my year 6 class. We are applying for an ehcp for him at the moment. He's in there with 4 others with ehcp's. I don't have a TA.

Like your son, this child is mostly ok and was fine in school in small bubbles, until he wanders/bolts off/ is asked to do something he doesn't want to do. Like your child, he will often run off across the field, climb trees or buildings, and become violent.

Whilst I do everything I can, and give him this/then boards, visual timetables, brain breaks, tailored teaching etc it is not enough. He is constantly on the verge of expulsion. I have to evacuate the class around him on a regular basis amd so far this year he has thrown rocks at me, kicked me, attempted to bite me, and come at me with scissors. Exclusion is very, very hard to put into place. Frankly, for this child, a special setting or a PRU would be better. Sometimes school is not the best setting, particularly for PDA children. Your sons teacher will also be coping with the rest of the class and it is horrible to see the effect of other childrens violence on them.

Sometimes other settings are better for all concerned and it is easier and better to get that setting in place before transferring to secondary when ultimately most settings have few if any places left.

I can cope with all manner of abilities and needs in a classroom and currently also have 2 working at reception level, but I cannot cope with violence and most primary settings can't - and neither can the other children. Engage in dialogue with the SENCO, investigate diagnosis and alternative settings. They can be flexible. A child I taught last year is now in school for 2 lessons in a nurture group and in a special setting for the rest of the day, for example.

[quote Blossomplease6]@MinnieMous3 it definitely isn’t hes fault. He isn’t enjoying it or doing it on purpose. No, the outburst are not his only problem. He highly likely has asd, adhd or both. Also, no, I do not discipline him at home for outbursts he can not control due to his needs. What would that achieve?
He’s been fine in school never an issue with violence until lockdown. He’s gone from home school, to key worker, to normal, back to key worker, back to normal, then to sen class. This is a lot for any child, let alone one for sen. He needs time and support. He’s lashing out to stop people from touching him, nothing else.[/quote]
I’m confused as to why you say he highly likely has ASD when he has been assessed by a professional who said he doesn’t have it? I don’t have experience with ASD but I doubt violent outbursts in isolation would warrant a diagnosis. Are there any other symptoms? Does he have any other diagnoses?

I don’t mean anything too heavy handed, but some children are just angry and need help controlling their temper. My brother was exactly like this at that age - no other issues, just violent outbursts for reasons that weren’t always entirely clear, but usually when someone said no to him. Like I said it was anger management which really helped as opposed to pursuing a diagnosis of some kind. These things aren’t always indicators of SEN, and since then my brother has grown up with no issues and is now a happy regular guy who has finished uni and has a good job etc.

I could be way off the mark but kids acting out isn’t always due to a ‘need’, it can just be bad behaviour that needs direction & guidance.

@MinnieMous3 yes there are lots of other symptoms. I thought I’d said that in my op but maybe I didn’t.
When he had the asd assessment they said he was just below the threshold and it might be worth getting him reassessed in a few years as he gets older and things become more obvious.
We’re still in the system waiting on other assessments. Covid delayed everything.

It’s definitely not bad behaviour. He’s extremely distressed. Not misbehaving.

There’s been loads of helpful advice on here though, thank you to all.

I fully sympathise with how difficult it is for teachers. Thankfully he has never been angry like that in class or to his teachers.

It's not helpful to apply pressure about the negative impact a child with SEN has. The OP has already said the SENCo is reluctant to request EHCP. There's nothing to suggest OP isn't working with the school. The OP has sought an assessment and waiting on CAMHS.

If the school make statements like they can't meet needs, they need to follow the correct procedures and not just pile on the guilt and worry.

My son attends a school 50 miles away. We fought for it at tribunal as there's no suitable provision nearer. But it's not ideal; the journey is tiring and because they all travel from different areas there's little chance for playdates etc.

My 8 year old son's former school offered to fund my youngest in wraparound care if I would move the 8 year old to another mainstream, because of the negative impact he had on their budget with his EHCP.
Apparently it was cheaper to absorb the wraparound care for my youngest.

And this was proposed in a meeting with a LA manager present. Who said nothing.

We ended up moving the youngest because of the fall-out.

We were shamed by the staff, frozen out by majority of parents all whilst begging then battling the LA. It was bloody awful. If it weren't for online support I would have completely cracked.

Some of the posts on this thread show the battles we face on daily basis due to the ignorance (deliberate or not) of others.

Things to work with:

If he needs to climb when he leaves class (which he does because he is!) what areas do they have he can do this? How can he indicate he needs to leave class?

He needs a visual that shows a lesson getting angry, shows them leaving, shows a picture of where he can go (any climbing frames in school?) and then a visual timer.
I'd start with a longer time - show him he has 15 minutes or whatever - then has to come down and talk. If he expresses he still needs time out he must have it.

This about building trust between him and the teachers and him not feeling trapped in situations he cannot get out of.

My ds is 16 and is autistic. When he says he can't manage something we suggest he tries and can leave of it's too much. He now manages to stay mostly. But at 8 (even at 11/12 when he started secondary) it needed building up again. The more he knew he could leave the more he was able to push himself a little bit more to try and stay. (Iyswim?)

@Nith

You say it ‘isn’t his fault’, do you discipline him firmly but fairly?

This is like saying "when your child refuses to get out of his wheelchair, do you discipline him firmly but fairly?"

In my defence, OP (if I have interpreted her posts correctly) didn’t say he was SEN, or that he had any symptoms other than violent outbursts. As this is what my brother had, I thought it was worth a suggestion because surely treating the symptom in isolation is more efficient than process of elimination of all behavioural conditions.

My DD is 6, in year 1 and spent the best part of the last year incredibly violent at school until school learnt how to handle her.

You need to apply for an EHCP assessment he clearly meets the assessment threshold so if they decline then appeal.

In some areas schools can apply for additional funding whilst waiting for the EHCP process to go through.

EHCPs are needs based not diagnosis but be careful as if you need a specialist setting then getting into those can sometimes be diagnosis based, particularly for ASD provisions.

If they exclude its essential they put further support in place to meet their needs and if they do exclude look at it as more evidence towards ehcp.

And for the PP who said about discipline, they clearly have no clue.

It might not be clear as I’m only talking about the negative but I think I have a pretty good relationship with the school and there’s mutual respect. It’s a very good school and I feel they’ve been understanding. They have done a lot, but there’s also a fair bit they haven’t done and should have. The senco once admitted letting it slip a bit and hadn’t read assessment reports ect. He’s only getting on top of it now because it’s causing an actual problem for him.
I somehow need to suggest other strategies to them that don’t involve holding him, and letting him do what he needs to do as long as it isn’t dangerous. But this isn’t easy without 1:1. I feel they’re answer will be it’s not fair on others and he has to follow the same rules ect.
He actually really likes school.
I spoke to ds tonight about the hitting and said I’m worried, asked him if he can try his absolute hardest to control it and find another way. He said he is trying. I asked why he thought he was doing it now because he’s never done it before at school and his answer “they keep holding me now. They never held me before”

I’m confused as to why you say he highly likely has ASD when he has been assessed by a professional who said he doesn’t have it?

He was assessed 2/3 years ago at age 5/6, so any results would hardly be reliable; also OP doesn't say who did the assessment, and I have to say some assessors are not as thorough as they should be.

If the school says it cannot meet your child's needs, that's an admission that they should have applied for an EHCP well before matters reached this stage. They really should be expediting the application now.

@MinnieMous3 if anything the ‘violent outbursts’ (not what I’d call them. As it makes it sound out of nowhere) are the least of the problems. They are not frequent, in fact didn’t happen at all until the last year and are the result of other things. It’s all his other ‘symptoms’ if you like that are causing these meltdowns. We just need to get to the bottom of what those are. Whether it’s adhd or asd, there are things that us adults can not understand that are causing him distress and that he can not cope with. When the adults around him do not recognise or meet those needs, meltdowns happen.

In my defence, OP (if I have interpreted her posts correctly) didn’t say he was SEN, or that he had any symptoms other than violent outbursts.

She said he was in an SEN class! Also that the school has said it can't meet his educational needs. Frankly, everything she says about her son screams that he has a learning difficulty, and it's clear that the school fully acknowledges that.

@Nith I will mention this. The senco agrees he needs one but was Adamant at we should wait for a diagnosis as it’ll make it easier.
But we’re 2 years down the line now so in hindsight that was a bad decision.

What strategies are in place, besides moving to the SEN class?
Have they applied for interim funding? Behaviour support?
The LA will have some form of outreach service to advise on behaviour and strategies, particularly if at risk of Permanent Exclusion.

It reads you raised applying for EHCP a little while ago - clearly there's been an escalation but presumably there were some issues presenting in school before lockdown.