To wonder when someone will stop us from destroying the planet before it is too late?

[Ohdoleavemealone]

Last night I watched a documentary about how the biggest threat to our oceans is the fishing industry. Worse than plastics (and actually 46% of the plastic is fishing nets), worse than killing sharks for fin soup or putting animals into captivity.
The bycatch from fishing means we are killing thousands of species for the few we want. We have depleted the oceans resources and killed the seabeds with the harsh methods used.
Of course this is on top of our piles of rubbish, fuel polution etc.
We have been destroying our planet for years but have really accelerated in the last 50 years as corporate companies have no moral compass and the rest of us are just sheep. We believe that we need all the consumer driven shit they tell us and we fund the industries killing our planet.
So how does it stop? Is it too late? Do we just accept it or do we try and fight for it? Are we little people enough?

Full disclosure: I do not do enough on a small level to do my bit but I am looking for ways I can.

@DdraigGoch If you think me, and the rest of the world, cutting back while still enjoying those luxuries occasionally is enough, then I think you have deluded yourself. I do try and do my bit, like most people, but I am aware it isn't enough to make real change and impact. Even if I, and everyone else, only have 2 kids, the earth would still be drastically overpopulated and unsustainable. The only thing that will save us is scientific breakthroughs, or an extinction-like event which kills off a significant % of humans.

Change needs to come from organisations and governments. People have complained about plastic straws, but what about all the plastic packaging on fruit, vegetables, meat, and fish in supermarkets? It's impossible to even eat without consuming a horrendous amount of single use plastic. We know too many people have cars, but our public transport network is over crowded, expensive, and unreliable - I say this as someone who has taken public transport to work for 5 years. There are many more examples. The real problems cannot be solved by us, and even if they are fixed I doubt it would be enough.

@UsedUpUsername from the BBC link that was posted above: the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), a US-based non-profit, estimates just 3% of the global population take regular flights

It is fucking scary. I think the clincher is going to be governments holding industry to account because the onus shouldn’t just be on the consumer. Even if we all did exactly what we’re supposed to, I doubt it would make enough difference. As others have said upthread though, holding industry to account seems pretty unlikely.

@SummaLuvin people are complaining about all types of plastic waste. You can join zero waste groups on Facebook to get tips on specific things or local to your area. Obviously you can get some loose fruit and veg in the supermarket but you might find a local market or independent grocer has a better range. I get a veg box when I don’t get enough from my allotment, you can get a zero packaging one but some of the stuff like spinach is only available in plastic, so that’s the kind of thing I focus on growing - I have a trough in my garden all year round. In terms of meat etc a lot of butchers/delis and supermarket counters will allow you to bring your own containers. Yes change needs to come from above (and you can write to companies/your MP to express your view or join a campaigning organisation) but there are certainly steps that individuals can take at the moment.

[quote SummaLuvin]@DdraigGoch If you think me, and the rest of the world, cutting back while still enjoying those luxuries occasionally is enough, then I think you have deluded yourself. I do try and do my bit, like most people, but I am aware it isn't enough to make real change and impact. Even if I, and everyone else, only have 2 kids, the earth would still be drastically overpopulated and unsustainable. The only thing that will save us is scientific breakthroughs, or an extinction-like event which kills off a significant % of humans.

Change needs to come from organisations and governments. People have complained about plastic straws, but what about all the plastic packaging on fruit, vegetables, meat, and fish in supermarkets? It's impossible to even eat without consuming a horrendous amount of single use plastic. We know too many people have cars, but our public transport network is over crowded, expensive, and unreliable - I say this as someone who has taken public transport to work for 5 years. There are many more examples. The real problems cannot be solved by us, and even if they are fixed I doubt it would be enough.[/quote]
The rest of the world is not cutting back on those luxuries though are they? They're all sat in traffic jams in their air-conditioned brand new Range Rovers belching fumes out into the adjacent primary school. If they jumped on their bikes instead then a massive dent would be put in the UK's transport emissions. By the way, transport now accounts for a quarter of our domestic emissions and has barely fallen since 1990, unlike electricity production where emissions have fallen from 203.0 to 57.4 in the same period.

It's impossible to even eat without consuming a horrendous amount of single use plastic.
Rubbish, nothing's impossible. My evening meal the other day consisted of pasta, eggs, vegetables and tomato sauce. A delightful meal without a single piece of plastic wrap. Before the pandemic Morrisons let you buy meat and fish in your own reusable containers too.

Change needs to come from organisations and governments...The real problems cannot be solved by us, and even if they are fixed I doubt it would be enough.
There we have it again, "somebody should do something". Hardly anybody ever takes responsibility for their own impact when it is everybody's job.

I may not single-handedly save the world but if nothing else I shall have a clear conscience.

I also think that big industry will be the key here
. The economy needs to change completely with businesses operating in a sustainable way where they are not damaging the environment in any way, and all of the waste that is currently built into the economy such as phone upgrades every year, fast fashion etc would have to replaced by things that were built to last. Obviously these companies would then make less money, have less demand for their goods and therefore there would be less jobs (although other sustainable opportunities may come out of out this I.e. like sustainable tourism) . No government is going to be brave enough to force this on people.
I think we would need a grass roots movement to change public opinion that would then force the government to act. Effectively I think the best thing we could do would be to campaign for living in a way that protects the environment . If we were able to get that message to a lot of people and they were on board with reducing their meat intake/not buying so many things /using cars less , I think it would make a difference to carbon emissions straight away. And if this was the generally accepted opinion the government would have to do sth about big industry otherwise they wouldn't get elected again.

I think that as demand for material things increases, birth rate will drop and things might balance out slightly.

I think people now shop a bit more ethically. I've just started using bread shampoo, I probably wouldn't have considered it a few years ago. I think people will hopefully start using ethics as a motivator of who they do business with.

But I was sickened when I came on mumsnet the other day and saw the 'what do people do on mumsnet that's disgusting' thread. So many people merrily doing things that don't make their lives easier, for negligible benefit, that is an absolute pointless waste of energy. Changing towels and jeans and bedding etc after every use just so it smells 'fresh' (of chemicals) or because its 'unhygienic' not to. The whole thread was quite lighthearted as well. I had to stop myself reading as I was upset both about people lack of understanding of what hygienic means and how their personal preference trumps absolutely everything else. I know it's a drop in the ocean compared to what companies do but if people don't behave responsibly or gave any sort of shit, I don't think a money making corporation is likely to.

The world will go on. It will move on from humans and redevelop. Maybe birds rat insects but some species will survive. I'm not say it's right and we shouldn't try. We absolutely should but nature will exterminate the start over when it all becomes too much.

As a cleaner in other peoples houses it really saddens me to see the number of people who simply do not care or can't be bothered to do their bit, ie the simplest of things like recycling. 95% of my clients don't recycle a thing. I've asked a number of them why, and the answers I get range from 'we don't bother with that', or 'I don't have time', or 'another bin in here would ruin the look of the kitchen'. Then we have the ones who are heating their houses to 25+ degrees every single day. And the ones who wash everything after one use, literally. Washing 14, 15 loads a week for 2 adults and one kid. Or the ones who are replacing their tile floors or bathroom suites or new windows every 2-3 years, because they think 'everyone does it'. Ah, no they don't! Such a waste.

I could go on and on. Working in others peoples homes has opened my eyes to the waste and sheer lack of concern or thought for the planet and the effect we are having. And that's only a small number of people. There is no hope.

@PattyPan

What do they define as regular?

In fact, there’s actually no good information on who takes flights. Consider this fact:

A consumer survey conducted by Credit Suisse First Boston in 2004 found that 47 percent of respondents in eight large Chinese cities had ever flown in an airplane

Way back in 2004 when China was a very poor country. Now it’s way richer and the air industry has boomed so that number is surely much, much higher.

Geography plays a part: a country like Indonesia has to have a robust air industry, because they are a bunch of islands. But maybe Europe not so much.

www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet/how-much-worlds-population-has-flown-airplane-180957719/

It's too late. It's also one of the reasons why I'm childfree by choice. (Although I have been ridiculed for that on here before).

It's scary but no one seems to care.

Depends upon what you're buying. Strawberries out of season are bad for the environment whether they've been flown in from Spain or incubated under heated polytunnels in the UK. UK strawberries in season are completely different

Pretty sure they’d still need to use a greenhouse, wouldn’t they? Spanish strawberries iirc are still lower carbon than UK. Study also indicated NZ lamb was less carbon heavy than UK lamb!

What was the footprint of the leeks, sprouts and peas I grew over the last twelve months? All organic, no machinery or heaters used at all

Great for you but not going to feed a nation. It doesn’t scale.

Lifestyles, countries have to change. Third world wants what we have and we always want more. Big money just drives it all. Technology may help but who owns/controls the technology?

@NeilBuchananisBanksy

It's too late. It's also one of the reasons why I'm childfree by choice. (Although I have been ridiculed for that on here before).

It's scary but no one seems to care.

It’s literally the best time ever to have a child.

If you had one 100 years ago, there’s a good chance they wouldn’t make it out of infancy and an even bigger chance they wouldn’t live until adulthood.

It’s not scary at all. Paul Ehrlich predicted this kind of Neo-Malthusian nonsense in the 1960s, said there was going to be mass starvation and the like; but like a good doomsday prophet he keeps pushing doomsday back again and again 🙄

@DrinkFeckArseBrick

I think that as demand for material things increases, birth rate will drop and things might balance out slightly.

I think people now shop a bit more ethically. I've just started using bread shampoo, I probably wouldn't have considered it a few years ago. I think people will hopefully start using ethics as a motivator of who they do business with.

But I was sickened when I came on mumsnet the other day and saw the 'what do people do on mumsnet that's disgusting' thread. So many people merrily doing things that don't make their lives easier, for negligible benefit, that is an absolute pointless waste of energy. Changing towels and jeans and bedding etc after every use just so it smells 'fresh' (of chemicals) or because its 'unhygienic' not to. The whole thread was quite lighthearted as well. I had to stop myself reading as I was upset both about people lack of understanding of what hygienic means and how their personal preference trumps absolutely everything else. I know it's a drop in the ocean compared to what companies do but if people don't behave responsibly or gave any sort of shit, I don't think a money making corporation is likely to.

I remember a thread a few weeks ago where a poster said that she used a fresh sponge every time she washed up. She'd be horrified if I told her just how long my (biodegradable) sponge lasted before it started falling apart.

Guess what, my utensils and crockery were still perfectly clean and I didn't get food poisoning.

Well it won't be too much longer until antibiotic resistance....that'll bring numbers down.

@UsedUpUsername

Depends upon what you're buying. Strawberries out of season are bad for the environment whether they've been flown in from Spain or incubated under heated polytunnels in the UK. UK strawberries in season are completely different

Pretty sure they’d still need to use a greenhouse, wouldn’t they? Spanish strawberries iirc are still lower carbon than UK. Study also indicated NZ lamb was less carbon heavy than UK lamb!

What was the footprint of the leeks, sprouts and peas I grew over the last twelve months? All organic, no machinery or heaters used at all

Great for you but not going to feed a nation. It doesn’t scale.

You can grow strawberry plants without a greenhouse and if you use one it doesn't need to be heated. You just have to accept that your season is a little more limited than we've become accustomed to.

@UsedUpUsername it doesn’t definite it in the article. Like you said, we don’t really need to fly very much in Europe and yet we do. We don’t need to fly to many of the popular holiday destinations from the U.K. like mainland France, Spain and Italy because they are easily reached by rail. There’s not much I can do to influence people in Indonesia but I can choose to limit my own flying.

I grow strawberries in pots on my patio, no need for a greenhouse. Raspberries, currants and blackberries also grow well in the U.K. without a greenhouse as well as obviously apples, pears, plums and cherries. I grow all these myself and don’t have a greenhouse - no need to worry about eating fruit on a locally grown diet

It took 200 years for the world population to idouble from 250 million to 500 million by 1625.

It then took 200 years, to 1825, to double the world’s population from 500 million to 1 billion. It then only took only 100 years to achieve the next doubling, bringing the total to 2 billion by 1930, and only 45 years to achieve yet another doubling, to 4 billion by 1975. The next doubling also took 45 years about 8 billion.

The problem quite simply is that there are too many people and the most effective environmental measure available to combat everything from climate change to plastic in the oceans to deforestation etc is either birth control or a deadly pandemic.

@malificent7

I dont think soecies are meant to last forever. I think they thrive until they get too succesful for their own good then fade and something else will evolve better suited to the environment. I often think how odd this all us and ask what the point of us is.

I agree with this. Human life won't last forever and that's ok

I wonder if. And I wonder if because it's happened before. Civilization after civilization collapsed in large part because of ecological overreach. Taking from nature faster than it can provide, causing it to provide even less, and famine inevitably follows.

When the people of Easter Island cut down the last tree they knew they were cutting down the last tree. They knew that no trees would mean no wood, would mean no boats, would mean no good fishing. They must have known that. And yet those people still cut down that tree. In 1620 the island was home to around 15 thousand people; by 1720 it was about 3 thousand.

And that's just one of many civilizations through history that went the same way.

What's different now is we are global. In the past an island, a region, even a subcontinent might fall, but as one place fell another could rise. Now we face the very real prospect of ecological collapse on a global scale, and a fall of civilization for the entire world.

It might happen this decade, or later this century, or it might even take several centuries before the damage we are doing really has its full impact. But I believe it will happen. We may have more knowledge and more technology than our forebears, but I do not believe we will avoid repeating the same mistakes.

Our only hope might be to get some people off this planet.

@safariboot even if that was possible there would eventually be a naturally occurring disaster that would put an end to civilisation

From our first beginnings to when the last human is gone will be a mere tiny, inconsequential blip on the timeline of the planet. The whole of humankind, the riches of our ancient history, culture, our wars, passions, flaws, beliefs, everything will barely register.

We've done awful things to this planet, but it will recover. We won't be around to see it, that's all.

This is true ^ but I still believe in taking responsibility for your own corner. I do what I can. I'm accountable to my children and future grandchildren.

People actually work more hours than 50 years ago

You can’t actually believe this ...

Some of us were around 50 years ago, and yes, I believe it. Certainly those in my parents circle didn't work as many crazy hours as a lot of people do now. People had more time for leisure than many do these days. I worked less hours in my first job (46 years ago) than I did in my last full time job.