To wonder when someone will stop us from destroying the planet before it is too late?

[Ohdoleavemealone]

Last night I watched a documentary about how the biggest threat to our oceans is the fishing industry. Worse than plastics (and actually 46% of the plastic is fishing nets), worse than killing sharks for fin soup or putting animals into captivity.
The bycatch from fishing means we are killing thousands of species for the few we want. We have depleted the oceans resources and killed the seabeds with the harsh methods used.
Of course this is on top of our piles of rubbish, fuel polution etc.
We have been destroying our planet for years but have really accelerated in the last 50 years as corporate companies have no moral compass and the rest of us are just sheep. We believe that we need all the consumer driven shit they tell us and we fund the industries killing our planet.
So how does it stop? Is it too late? Do we just accept it or do we try and fight for it? Are we little people enough?

Full disclosure: I do not do enough on a small level to do my bit but I am looking for ways I can.

I was thinking this when reading an Ocean Encyclopedia to dc, which talked about fishing, how much rubbish is dumped in the ocean, the affect of oil spills, in fact all the things which should be on ground or under ground being put in the oceans, plastic bottles taking 500 years to degrade.

I am a bit of an ignoramus here but what annoys me is that when you hear the likes of Attenborough give interviews, he just says "something must be done urgently". He doesn't say specifically what.

What I suspect is that what is needed here (and this is what the likes of Attenborough needs to be saying if so) is:

• stop oil and convert to 100 pc renewable - this is technically possible but it means that the people who are extremely rich as a result of oil will lose a lot of money
• totally change fishing practices - similar problem to above
• stop use of plastic - similar problem

Changes made by individuals will be a drop in the polluted ocean

Big business need to be brought to account by governments

And that will happen when hell freezes over as a result of climate change.

We’ve got something called nuclear power that is very low carbon (lower than most renewables) and can absolutely sustain complex societies to a high standard. Sorry to disappoint
The carbon bit might be true, but where does the spent fuel go? Because it is still giving off significant amounts of radiation 30 years after it has been used and if we switch to nuclear, that will ever increase - if this is right it does not solve the problem.

But it's not; renewables do not have the same energy output as oil or gas, in addition, they are unreliable. Think of solar power - this only works on a sunny day, so you can't predict how much energy you will get. Same with wind farms, if it's not windy out there is no energy

Accordiing to what I've read this is not true. Tesla's research about this was squashed 100 years ago by people who would lose out financially as a result. Other reliable types of wave and hydro and other ways of generating power is being investigated. Teh problem is not whether there would be power, it is the conflict with money interests of big business.

Is that enough for you to be satisfied and fulfilled in life? I want to visit Japan. I want to eat mangos, and beef, and fish, and aubergines. I want to see the Mosi-oa-Tunya. I want to have children. As much as I know those things are detrimental to the environment, I don't think I can be satisfied in a life where I am a small-holder, never leaving my small town, never experiencing other cultures... Fair play to those of you who can sacrifice all those things, but I am not alone in finding the idea of that life entirely miserable. Fear of the future isn't enough for me to let go of joy in the present.

See?

It will never change. People want what they want and that’s all that matters.

@frothychai

I was thinking this when reading an Ocean Encyclopedia to dc, which talked about fishing, how much rubbish is dumped in the ocean, the affect of oil spills, in fact all the things which should be on ground or under ground being put in the oceans, plastic bottles taking 500 years to degrade.

I am a bit of an ignoramus here but what annoys me is that when you hear the likes of Attenborough give interviews, he just says "something must be done urgently". He doesn't say specifically what.

What I suspect is that what is needed here (and this is what the likes of Attenborough needs to be saying if so) is:

• stop oil and convert to 100 pc renewable - this is technically possible but it means that the people who are extremely rich as a result of oil will lose a lot of money
• totally change fishing practices - similar problem to above
• stop use of plastic - similar problem

Changes made by individuals will be a drop in the polluted ocean

Big business need to be brought to account by governments

And that will happen when hell freezes over as a result of climate change.

This.

stop oil and convert to 100 pc renewable - this is technically possible but it means that the people who are extremely rich as a result of oil will lose a lot of money

It’s not because of wealthy people and their oil stocks. It’s because we need electricity at night and heat in the winter and we cannot rely on renewables to provide that. Nuclear is your best bet if you don’t like fossil fuels (I happen to like both)

totally change fishing practices - similar problem to above

Cannot speak to fishing practices but yes it does seem unsustainable

stop use of plastic - similar problem

You .... can’t be serious. Plastic is in literally everything. You can’t live without it. Hemp ain’t gonna cut it.

MN teaches me regularly that many people simply do not care about the environment and they feel entitled to get whatever they want with no regard to it. I don’t know how we change that attitude I think actually a huge public awareness campaign is needed both about what exactly is happening and also what governments and big business need to do about in within the next few years. Trying to bring about change getting individuals to change their lifestyle while governments and big business continue to cause the problem is a waste of time. If enough awareness is raised, and public opinion changes, governments and big business may respond, though.

It’s not because of wealthy people and their oil stocks ...

It’s because we need electricity at night and heat in the winter and we cannot rely on renewables to provide that. Nuclear is your best bet if you don’t like fossil fuels (I happen to like both) I am not sure this is right any more. Renewables are more than possible. Nuclear brings its own problems as no one has worked out what to do with the radiactive spent fuels. Fossil fuels cannot be sustained.

The carbon bit might be true, but where does the spent fuel go? Because it is still giving off significant amounts of radiation 30 years after it has been used and if we switch to nuclear, that will ever increase - if this is right it does not solve the problem

Nuclear waste is not a big deal. You can store it onsite. It can actually be reprocessed and used again as fuel too. France does this currently, and the US could do it too with their waste if they thought storing it was somehow a problem.

Nuclear waste is actually compact, solid and often less toxic than other types of hazardous industrial waste, like cadmium, which doesn’t decay and is basically toxic forever ....

am not sure this is right any more. Renewables are more than possible

They are not. I’m not sure why you think they are.

Nuclear brings its own problems as no one has worked out what to do with the radiactive spent fuels

It’s not a problem. Spent fuel can be reprocessed and used again (as in France) or just stored like any other hazardous industrial material. What do you think happens to cadmium in solar panels? That stuff stays toxic forever and you are not allowed to toss solar panels in a regular dump because of this.

@SummaLuvin

If we went back to a simpler life, with less stuff and more time - to grow our own food, raise our own meat, buy locally and work as communities then it would make a huge difference.

Is that enough for you to be satisfied and fulfilled in life? I want to visit Japan. I want to eat mangos, and beef, and fish, and aubergines. I want to see the Mosi-oa-Tunya. I want to have children. As much as I know those things are detrimental to the environment, I don't think I can be satisfied in a life where I am a small-holder, never leaving my small town, never experiencing other cultures... Fair play to those of you who can sacrifice all those things, but I am not alone in finding the idea of that life entirely miserable. Fear of the future isn't enough for me to let go of joy in the present.

That's the problem. People care about themselves only.

@SummaLuvin It doesn’t have to be enjoyment of life vs saving the environment. Maybe not mangoes but you can definitely grow aubergines in the U.K. - I have an allotment and other people on my site grow aubergines, melons, grapes, peppers etc in unheated greenhouses. People also grow tons of stuff well-suited to our climate that is harder to get in the supermarkets, like mulberries, gooseberries, fava beans and Jerusalem artichokes. You can grow or buy locally, organically grown plastic-free food where possible and buy mangoes and you’ve still reduced your impact. You can still eat beef and fish if you really have to but do it much less frequently. You can get pole and line caught fish like Fish 4 Ever which is a less destructive method.

I think people also need to look at alternative forms of transport ie rail for European trips, and buying offsets or similar for flights. I think Climeworks is the most effective organisation I’ve read about in that regard (they do carbon capture and storage). You can fly in economy and pack light to reduce emissions when you do fly.

You can limit your family size and raise your children in the most environmentally conscious way you can. One of the things that motivates me is preserving the world for my (as yet unborn) children. I don’t want them to grow up in a world where there are no fish in the sea or bumblebees or hedgehogs. I don’t want them to breathe toxic air or never be able to see the stars because of light pollution. Those are things that bring joy too.

It won't happen. At least, there won't be any meaningful effort from the UK (and continental Europe). If a pandemic doesn't restrict our movements, they're not going to limit polluting international travel for climate change. We (the whole international community) need to ration non essential travel if we want to tackle climate change. One holiday a year with option to sell your annual entitlement to someone else. That would be a good start.

It won't happen. 150,000 dead from covid in the UK but we still have widespread exemptions from the so-called travel ban including the option for wealthier people to pay £5,000 to go on holiday. Easily affordable to some. Neither covid nor climate change respects wealth. Covid still spreads if someone is rich, climate change still happens.

@UsedUpUsername

If we switched back to buying locally grown food it would help, just think of how many miles the food in the supermarket travels from, it's insane

It’s insane you don’t realise that transport is nothing compared to the carbon costs of food production in developed countries. Everything from machinery to chemical fertiliser to energy costs (eg greenhouses in winter).

Locally grown food has higher carbon costs than food grown in developing countries. Transport generally doesn’t change that.

Depends upon what you're buying. Strawberries out of season are bad for the environment whether they've been flown in from Spain or incubated under heated polytunnels in the UK. UK strawberries in season are completely different.

What was the footprint of the leeks, sprouts and peas I grew over the last twelve months? All organic, no machinery or heaters used at all (though this season I've got a 360W electric soil sieve to speed up the rate that I'm clearing up the dumping ground which now forms my garden, same power as four old-fashioned lightbulbs).

We (the whole international community) need to ration non essential travel if we want to tackle climate change. One holiday a year with option to sell your annual entitlement to someone else. That would be a good start

Flights are maybe 2 percent of all carbon emissions, so not really a huge contributor to carbon emissions in the scheme of things. So happy flying 😎

No. I have no desire to live like an Amish person.

We (the whole international community) need to ration non essential travel if we want to tackle climate change. One holiday a year with option to sell your annual entitlement to someone else. That would be a good start

No, 'we' don't. If you don't want to travel, then stay at home.

We won't destroy the planet we really won't and it's very self important to think we ever could. We will destroy ourselves long before that. And the planet will recover and evolve. To a new normal.

@SummaLuvin

If we went back to a simpler life, with less stuff and more time - to grow our own food, raise our own meat, buy locally and work as communities then it would make a huge difference.

Is that enough for you to be satisfied and fulfilled in life? I want to visit Japan. I want to eat mangos, and beef, and fish, and aubergines. I want to see the Mosi-oa-Tunya. I want to have children. As much as I know those things are detrimental to the environment, I don't think I can be satisfied in a life where I am a small-holder, never leaving my small town, never experiencing other cultures... Fair play to those of you who can sacrifice all those things, but I am not alone in finding the idea of that life entirely miserable. Fear of the future isn't enough for me to let go of joy in the present.

We're not saying that you have to live like a monk, moderation is the key to getting more people on board.

You've listed two long-haul destinations you want to visit. I've got a few places on my list too. But make long-haul trips the exception rather than the rule. Don't become one of those couples who jet over to the Caribbean three times a year, instead make a long-haul trip once every few years and make the rest of your holidays short-haul and travel by train to get to them.

You want to eat exotic foods? I enjoy oranges, bananas and pineapples too. You don't have to cut them out completely, just consider them to be treats rather than staples. Make an effort to check the ethics of the producer too.

Children, how many do you plan to have? You don't have to have none or even restrict yourself to one. If the fertility rate gets too low it stores up problems of its own in terms of an aging population. If every person in the world bar became a parent to two kids, the population would be stable. Bearing in mind that some people don't want any kids at all and others are happy with one, it isn't too much of a problem if the odd family had three kids. Just as long as the average didn't rise to more than two.

You'll actually enjoy things more if you cut down on them. They'll be more special.

Option 1 do very little, enjoy yourself before everything goes to shit , mass migration , failing crops , cities underwater , suggest you don't have children if it would pain you to see them suffer

Option 2 , cut the flights, the meat and dairy , your car less and force government around the world to take action then at least you will know you didn't bring it on yourself

@UsedUpUsername that’s quite a high percentage of emissions from a fairly small number of people.

@DarcyJack that’s not much comfort for the species that are currently dying out as a result of our actions

www.bbc.com/future/article/20200218-climate-change-how-to-cut-your-carbon-emissions-when-flying

@midgeswithnofingernails

Option 1 do very little, enjoy yourself before everything goes to shit , mass migration , failing crops , cities underwater , suggest you don't have children if it would pain you to see them suffer

Option 2 , cut the flights, the meat and dairy , your car less and force government around the world to take action then at least you will know you didn't bring it on yourself

Please read the IPCC AR5 and get these doomsday scenarios out of your head. Although I suspect you rather enjoy them

@diwrnachoflleyn

No. I have no desire to live like an Amish person.

[quote PattyPan]@UsedUpUsername that’s quite a high percentage of emissions from a fairly small number of people.

@DarcyJack that’s not much comfort for the species that are currently dying out as a result of our actions[/quote]
What you think only first-world people fly? Indonesia, China and India all have huge domestic flight industries. But I guess you wouldn’t know since you probably never fly 😂

@DarcyJack

We won't destroy the planet we really won't and it's very self important to think we ever could. We will destroy ourselves long before that. And the planet will recover and evolve. To a new normal.

This is true but I'd rather like the planet my future grandchildren inhabit to be - well - inhabitable. "The Earth will recover after all of humanity has been wiped out" is not very reassuring.