What is it that makes men change once you have DC?

[Hillsandthrills]

Once me and my exDH had DC he completely changed - became argumentative, tight with money, moody, avoided helping with DC, everything became my fault, struggled to get him to come out on day trips blah blah blah. I see this a lot of times on MN and in real life - what is it that makes men change? Is it lack of attention from their wives/partner after the DC are born? Not liking the new responsibilities?

ddraig that’s true it can certainly be less noticeable, see my other post above though.

If someone doesn’t pull their own weight before having children, they are almost certainly not going to when they’re more tired and have even less free time.

I’m not so sure it’s that easy to miss someone never washing up/putting a wash load on/doing the dishes. Unless you’ve never lived with them, or haven’t for a long time?

As an e.g. my DP had never ironed before, didn’t matter as his job had a uniform that didn’t require ironing. Now he has an office type job and shirts are worn frequently, I’m certainly not doing his ironing. I showed him how to iron and he does it whilst giving the DC breakfast. It’s all too easy to go ‘oh I’ll do it sweetie pass it here’ but it’s a slippery slope.

I’m certainly not blaming the partner for the men’s actions but there are definitely hints around what someones character is long before children usually. If someone is holy doing everything before they’ve got to go into family life assuming it’ll remain the same when deciding whether to pro create with that person.

Sadly I have a friend who I see going this way, she has said in the past she feels like she has two children (DC1 and DP) but is due another soon, I’m skeptical about how much he’ll do when they’re here.

It’s women who change, not men, as others have said. Women, once they have children, step up because they have to.

A man whose laziness or entitlement might have been tolerable when you were just shagging him suddenly becomes a millstone around your neck when you have kids.

Women no longer have to tolerate this just because. So they don’t.

@Babdoc can't imagine what you went through.

I dated a guy who played cricket a while back.
As a result I started to hangout at the cricket club from time to time. The club had a mix of two sets of players - the younger set (pre children / responsibility) and typically these were in the 1st and 2nd teams. Time commitment in cricket season of 1 full day a weekend, possible whole weekend if away matches. Plus mid week training. Not insignificant portions of time.

Then there were the second crowd, older men, nearly all married with very young children. They played in the 3rds/ 4th. Often these men worked all during the week. Then they would play cricket all saturday. Some then would be taking / helping with children’s cricket club on the Sundays.

The babies/ toddlers? With their wives.
I was absolutely floored that such a large tranche of men somehow thought that this was an acceptable lifestyle choice once they had started families. Their justification? After a hard week at work, this is how they ‘destressed.’

Now did these men change post DC? No. And that is the problem. A huge life change happened and yet their lives continued, completely unchanged. They’d often be found in the clubhouse after Saturday matches, necking pints whilst simultaneously saying how they had to get back as the wife was banging on at them about the children.

If women choose to be with those men @sassbott what can actually be done? We can’t force women to leave.

My friends husband couldn’t stand that his mother greeted his baby before him, literally sat in a sulk at being ignored. They didn’t last.

I don’t have the answer to that question @FTEngineerM. But I remember being absolutely staggered that this is how these men showed up. With this degree of entitlement and zero ability to recognise the change required.

I think its interesting actually because when I was younger I thought people change. How very progressive of younger me.

But actually the two biggest predictors of a man's attitude to parenting is the relationship with his own parents, and what they do before children. Its that lesson that I will pass on to my children.

People do not generally change in relationships, and a man who expects you to pick up domestic tasks before kids will be expecting it afterwards.

@FTEngineerM

If women choose to be with those men *@sassbott* what can actually be done? We can’t force women to leave.

Because we are sold the lie that we need men. I am single and this is met with genuine sympathy so much, and when I say I am happy being single I'm not believed. And now and again someone tries to alleviate the misery they've perceive I'm in by setting me up with their unattractive/alcoholic/weirdo friend. Because being with such a man is preferable to being alone

But when we are socialised, basically from birth, to believe that the worst thing to happen to us is to not have a man in our lives, we allow ourselves to think it's better to be unhappy than alone.

I'm a huge advocate for being single. I don't miss having a man in my life at all. I don't feel lonely or like I have a piece missing. As cheesy as it sounds - the best relationship I've ever had is with myself, and I've never been happier

I think even though there is less housework before kids, it is still obvious when men aren't pulling their weight. So the idea that it isn't is just stupid.

My DH before marriage and before kids would cook dinner, wash up, clean, do laundry etc. I would come home and he would be on his knees cleaning the bathroom. He came from one of the most sexist misogynistic families ever! His mum did everything and his dad did nothing. His mum had no access to money etc - no freedom. And yet here, I had a well rounded individual as a boyfriend. He was a keeper.

10 years later and two kids. He still cleans, tidies, buys the kids clothes, finds and buys their winter coats, still the main bathroom cleaner and he also does all tbe typical male activity around cars etc. Granted, he isn't the best cook but he will do it but just takes a bit longer and sometimes everything is a little cold but it isn't though strategic incompetence, he just doesn't have any intuition in tbe kitchen and so is methodical. The only thing i do more of is play date arranging. But other than that a full life partner.

From the very beginning I behaved like his girlfriend, not his mother - not sure if that was a contributing factor to the overall outcome. But I know my situation isn't the norm.

@sassbott as a fully fledged member of a cricketing family I can't believe that people don't have these discussions before having children. Our club and its members are very much family orientated and the partners of players (male and female) are usually fully committed to the game. It was my choice to marry DH knowing about his love for cricket and the time that entails. The difference was that I never stayed home 'waiting' for him or doing drudge work. I spent many happy hours with babies/toddlers at the club having a drink with friends and chilling and, as soon as our boys hit 5yrs old and started playing themselves I was free to join them or not. That has been our lives for the past 16yrs. (They are now 19 & 22) They love it, it's a huge part of their lives.

It's a mindset regardless of the hobby surely? DH is a domestic goddess and always has been. He took to fatherhood like a duck to water despite being almost 50 when we had our first and having zero experience of children. He has never had the expectation that I should pick up his slack either before or after we had the boys so I've never felt the need to curtail his activities.

Personally, and obviously only in my own experience, I think that people make life changing decisions far too soon in their relationships.

No words.

People have low expectations of men. I know too many people who have husbands that expect housework to be done, food shopping to be done and even childcare too... yet when questioned "it's just easier to do it myself" yet will privately moan when they've once again taken the children out while hubby goes off on a bike/golf course/gym to destress/

It’s hard to say though james

My OH might not do anything like the MN goal of 50% but if we split I’d be doing 100% rather than the 85% I’m currently doing. And he does help in other ways, so hard to say.

It depends what women expect too. As a single young woman with my own house and career, I had a cleaner. DH was really clear from day one that he would not be doing half the cleaning or his laundry. No problem-;he paid someone else to do it all and continued to do that when I gave up work.

When we got married my working class MIL (who happened to be a deputy HT and run around after her husband like a blue arsed fly, had the audacity to say "now you're married, I hope you won't be needing that cleaner any more". Fortunately my mother overheard and swung back with "goodness Joan, did you bring your girls up to clean despite all that university". One of the few times my mother has ever had my back.

Probably helps that DH is insanely tidy.

My DH used to have women ask him shitloads of questions/comments when he had the newborn out alone in public, where’s mum, that baby is too cold/hot, awww dads babysitting or are you split from mum.

It used to piss him off to no end as he felt judged and spied on for taking care of his own child.

One of his friends was horrified and impressed that he ‘babysat’ (BF) baby solo overnight while I went to a festival, I came home to a roast and clean home.

I know I could leave this house tm and bar the DC having long nails, everything would be done as it always is and I think that’s how it should be.

Society needs to expect better from men.

As a mate of mine (with a semi useless husband) says, he can manage just fine at work so he has the capacity to manage at home.

Mother's and fathers both change. My DH seems a bit depressed about time passing, we watched some film when our first was a baby and it had a little kid in it, and he cried and said he couldn't bear the thought that our child would one day grow up and leave home and he would be old. He is much grumpier with the kids than I thought he would be based on his personality, but that's probably because he's not used to all their crap day in day out.

@ScaredOfDinosaurs

Who cares? Bottom line, if someone behaves like a twat then they are a twat, end of.

Personally I think it is because of deep seated entitlement and ingrained misogyny, but I would give it the same amount of time in my thoughts that they have given to you - none.

This exactly.

My DH isn't a twat, he didn't morph into one after having DD (thankfully!). We have a very equal relationship - and I wouldn't accept anything less.

@nokidshere I wish my DH was into cricket. I used to love going with my ex, was always a great day, could just sit and chat once the teas were done, went on fantastic trips. I still enthusiastically tell him the England scores and he nods vaguely. We do other hobbies like tennis and cycling together instead. Today's match is not promising though! Thread derail

In some cases men change for the better. Having children is huge for anyone it brings out the best and worst in people.

An awful lot of men just want a relationship. They get married and agree to kids because it's what's expected of them and as a concession to maintain the relationship, but if they are totally honest about it, they really didn't wanted any of it. I've never a man who said his ambition was to be a father. The exceptions prove the rule.

My DH used to whatever he wanted when he got home from work and on days off. Suddenly he was dad in those times and didn’t like it. Even though I was a SAHM and only had to do dad, not cook or clean or shop !

@nokidshere I wish my DH was into cricket. I used to love going with my ex, was always a great day, could just sit and chat once the teas were done, went on fantastic trips. I still enthusiastically tell him the England scores and he nods vaguely. We do other hobbies like tennis and cycling together instead. Today's match is not promising though! Thread derail

Oops lol I'm the one who nods vaguely these days, I was only ever really interested in cricket when it was my children playing to be fair other than for the social aspect. These days I just wave them off and relish having the house to myself for a few hours. I've had a running commentary on today's match though - they are not happy!

@Pyewackect

An awful lot of men just want a relationship. They get married and agree to kids because it's what's expected of them and as a concession to maintain the relationship, but if they are totally honest about it, they really didn't wanted any of it. I've never a man who said his ambition was to be a father. The exceptions prove the rule.

But lots of women just have a marriage/relationship in order to have children. That's hardly fair.