What is it that makes men change once you have DC?

[Hillsandthrills]

Once me and my exDH had DC he completely changed - became argumentative, tight with money, moody, avoided helping with DC, everything became my fault, struggled to get him to come out on day trips blah blah blah. I see this a lot of times on MN and in real life - what is it that makes men change? Is it lack of attention from their wives/partner after the DC are born? Not liking the new responsibilities?

Mine did all that and ended up going no contact for 11 years when youngest was 3. He's blamed those absent 11 years on his depression.

‘Same as some women’ is bollocks.

The number and proportion of shit mums is tiny in comparison with the number and proportion of shit dads.

I changed more than my DH when we had our first child. I was quite young, mid-20's, didn't really have any experience with children, only had older sibling growing up for example.

I went from being care-free and fun to tired, responsible and completely absorbed by this new baby (as you should be). My husband went from care-free and fun to care-free and frustrated. For some reason it took him years to understand why I couldn't be exactly like I was before. The answer to that was mainly that if I had, the baby would probably be dead as it's not possible to combine nights out, sleeping till noon and drinking champagne cocktails for lunch when you have a little baby who relies on you 24/7.

It was the cause for many arguments and much resentment for years. I was just forced to step up and do it all, as he didn't and wouldn't.

Babdoc
I cannot imagine how hard that was.

This is a truly useful and enlightening thread. Calm and factual, too. Wish there was a category like Classics to put it in. One with less guffawing/wit and more basic boring life-changing truth.

But I guess we’d need a PreMumsnet.com to go with it?

I think society in general is very poor at shining a light on the realities of young children and family life. It's costly exhausting and require immense amounts of euro. That's very rarely represented in any media/social media/ policies or even within family stories. My own mother was forever telling me how great it would be despite my recollection of her making it looked like she hated most of it, but she wanted grandchildren.....As a consequence I dint think couples spend enough time bottoming out the nitty gritty of it. What are we going to have to stop doing in order to accommodate all this extra work, whose going to give up what hobbies, what financial commitments will we stop, who will take the work hit and for how long... etc. Then when the baby arrives our societal structure had granted only worn the right to take maternity (I know men can but it's so frowned upon) so they end up default carer and career sacrificer and it sticks....

@Babdoc not much to say except your DP sounded wonderfully and I'm sorry you lost him soon.

*wonderful

This thread made for a really sad read, I'm sorry so many women have had to put up with this from men.

By some bizarre miracle, my experience went the opposite way. He used to be very single-focused and almost self absorbed before children. A workaholic, inattentive... (typing this I'm seeing what a huge gamble having kids with him was!)

Now he's wonderful, I couldn't ask for a better dad for the children. He dotes on them, pulls his weight, cooks and cleans, and I don't think I've ever heard him raise his voice or lose his temper with them, he's endlessly patient. Having kids was the making of him, and me.

This thread really gave me pause for thought, and to spare a moment being very very grateful things turned out as they did.

Some do, some don't and reasons are complex, equally women change too.

I suspect the root cause is that the family dynamics have changed at home and are now centred around a helpless thing that just cries, eats and sleeps but meanwhile most men are expected to carry on at work as if nothing has happened, no allowances for only having 4 hours sleep, hence tension. It's a huge change

I wonder if in the past it was other women such as family members that stepped in to plug the gap when mum had her hands full with children and now many don't have this support some men are resisting stepping in.

I do think men in general have more of a tendency to expect things to fit around them than women.

My dh has always been a bit shit with the housework. That didn’t get any better or worse after having kids but I had less time to pick up his slack. However he was wonderful with the baby, much more natural than myself if I’m honest. His dad was very hands on, spent as much time as possible with the kids outside work and they are extremely close so I think role models play a big part. However fil also tends to do things like ask mil to do it if the kids want a drink so I made sure to not let that become a thing in our house.

I agree it's not so much that men change, it's that a lot of life with young children is boring drudgery. The man often tries to escape it - in a way that all of us like to escape monotony - spending time with hobbies and friends. Yet this is a time when the woman needs her husband to help HER with the drudgery and monotony but saying so comes across as "punishing" or nagging.

The man thinks "she wanted a baby" and he's now financially supporting the family, as if he's funding his wife having a special hobby so why is she complaining? Why is she trying to foist the labour of her special hobby into me - I'm already having to pay for it! Plus I think a lot of men feel that once they are financially supporting the wife and their joint children, the least the wife can do is look after him domestically. It seems a logical exchange to them.

I experienced this with my husband when we had our first child (he still pulled his weight domestically though). I wanted him to want to spend time with us as a family whereas he was constantly trying to negotiate his turn for "time off" . Admittedly our first child was very challenging (finally diagnosed with ASD and ADHD in his teens ). H made no secret of the fact that whilst he loved our son he found fatherhood unrewarding most of the time.

I did challenge this, I had to over and over. I did have some bartering power in that I also worked FT and eventually overtook him in earnings so at least the logic of "I'm supporting you financially" fell away. He was astonished to discover that I also found parenthood dull and hard work a lot of the time. I think there is an assumption that women are biologically programmed to love, or at least not mind, dirty nappies and sleepless nights. I insisted on sharing the burden and spending some family time together. The more this happened the more he bonded, and of course once past the toddler stage it becomes easier anyway. He wasn't keen on starting again with a second child though and couldn't understand why I wanted another baby. We did eventually have a second and things were much, much different (better) the second time around. We even split the maternity/paternity leave.

I still have more of the mental load but he does more laundry and cooking than me so I'll take that. I wish hadn't had to dig my heels in but I'm glad I did. If things hadn't changed I would have grown so resentful that I don't think our marriage would have lasted.

@Hardbackwriter

I don't think they do change. I think they've always been selfish, done little domestically (or do it in a way that isn't helpful practically - e.g. they'll cook a three hour show stopper meal for guests but won't do a quick midweek dinner), have expected huge amounts of leisure time and uninterrupted sleep as their compensation for doing (often a perfectly ordinary) job - but most of that isn't very obvious before the children. Sleep and leisure aren't in short supply so it isn't clear that he thinks he deserves them more than his partner, and domestic work was much lighter so if all he does is take out the bins and do some gardening very few weeks both halves can kid themselves that he does his part. When he still only does that while his partner now has no leisure time at all it's now obviously selfish but he hasn't actually changed, it's just been exposed.

This is exactly it. The comments you see on here saying 'why did you have children with a man child' are ridiculous. It doesn't come to light until you have a baby and the woman is up every hour of the night and expected to clean the house and cook every meal every day of maternity leave (and then beyond once she goes back to work because she's already doing it) while he fucks off to play golf because he's been 'working all week'

We still live in a culture which sees women as primary care givers, so many / most men are happy to go along with it. Women have recently been encouraged (rightly) to expect men to participate more; I think there is a mismatch between these two things as society slowly changes. Overall, men are more involved in parenting than they were in the 60's / 70's, but the pace of change is way too slow and it pisses women off. Women more likely to also be working (needed coz of house prices) than in the past which makes it harder on them; they do a 'triple shift' (work / domestic work & the emotional labour).

I honestly think an awful lot of men are not fussed about having children but just have them either because their partner wants them or because "it's what you do" plus, of course, the accidental pregnancies.

When baby comes along and they realise how much work is involved and, often, all you get in return is screaming, terrible lack of sleep, worry, possibly financial worry they realise maybe having children is not that wonderful.

Of course many women feel that too. Unless you have been very involved with babies/young children before you have your own you really have no idea how hard it is. Even the perfect smiling, sleeping through the night baby often causes problems in relationships.

Also quite a lot of woman are far more interested in having children than having a happy good relationship with a man. I read that on threads on here all the time.

I believe statistics show that childfree couples are less likely to split up than couples with children. Certainly among my friends and family that is true

Yeah, I think a lot of the time the issue is actually that the men don’t change, but the existence of the baby puts their behaviour into sharp relief.

My husband is a great dad to our baby. He does virtually all nappies, half of the entertaining and carrying, endless walks for naps, and more than his share of laundry / cleaning / cooking etc. The only thing he doesn’t do is feeding bedside the baby is exclusively breastfed. This is just a continuation of who he was before; he has always done his fair share of chores and the mental load, and has always been a fair, generous and respectful person who puts me first (as I put him first in turn). So he didn’t change - he was decent, and remains decent. Men who aren’t decent to begin with continue to not be decent, but it’s much harder for their poor partners to pick up the slack with a baby to care for as well.

My husband went from care-free and fun to care-free and frustrated. For some reason it took him years to understand why I couldn't be exactly like I was before
Yes, this, and for me it was really the end of the marriage. He could not understand why he can't go on a months' holiday with a couple of cool friends when we had a 1 year old and I was 7 months pregnant with a second. He quite sincerely could not get why I could not join them, could I not find someone to look for a baby for a month?... Like a nanny or maybe a neighbour? Ah what a shame, ok bye, the tickets are for tomorrow! And I swear this is a functional adult male, educated, with a good career and managerial responsibilities.

From his perspective, I became a stereotype - mumsy, overweight, insecure, materialistic. He very quickly found someone more fun. His literal quote - "I cannot love someone who seriously thinks about whether there's milk in the fridge for breakfast".

@lynsey91 I think you have a good point, I don't think we talk enough about whether we really want kids (rather than just expect it's something you end up doing). I never had that biological urge that some women talk about and I've heard very few men ever talk about being desperate to have kids. So if it is something that you're at best ambivalent about (and your partner was really pushing for) and then the reality of how hard and monotonous it can be kicks in you'd probably be a bit like "well you wanted this so much you deal with it". Moral of the story, really stress test your partner's genuine desire for children and their willingness to make sacrifices to do so before having a baby with them... otherwise it will always be your job.

I've found myself increasingly frustrated by shit men today. I am part of a friendship group of three, two of us single mums (with exH's who were shits) and the other, let's call her Alice, is married to the world's most feckless prick. He won't watch the kids last 7pm because he "can't put them to bed". So if we have a night out, it isn't actually a night out, it's an afternoon out so she can be back in time to put their 2 children to bed half cut which if they were babies and a struggle, I'd get it. But they are 8 and 5. Im not sure what is so hard about laying 2 children down and say "good night". She keeps saying as they get older he will be "able to manage" and she could do more on an evening. So I've tried organising a girls weekend away in a U.K. city for July when we can (hopefully!!) get back to normal. Me and other other friend have had to book on our own because Alice asked her husband (IMO if you have to get permission for time away your marriage is in the toilet) and he said not this year, maybe next when he can manage them for "so long" better I did say ask him what he plans to do if you ever need a hospital admission or, heaven forbid, die suddenly.

I used to work in a gynae ward and we'd have admissions from A&E for women needing emergency surgery, or being in acute pain. It was always alarming how many women:

1. Had their husband and kids come with them because he can't cope alone, so she's in extreme pain from an ovarian cyst for example, and because her children have only ever been taught that she looks after them, it's "mum can you get me a drink" "mum I'm bored" as she moans in pain.

And/or

1. She needs to have me regency surgery and her husband would ask, in all seriousness "what am I supposed to do with the kids". I always responded "look after them".
2. Pushed for her to discharge herself early because he can't cope at home. I would stress that, because I wasn't a doctor, if she goes home today or before seeing the doctor I can't prescribe her any pain killers stronger than paracetamol or ibuprofen. Meaning she will be in agony come 6pm. Most of the time women would reluctantly say "that's fine", with the pressure of a useless shit of a man bearing down on her.

It's one of the reasons I left the NHS and went into teaching. My regard for men was quickly and fiercely lowering.

I suppose mines a bit like that hettie so I can’t complain!

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows
I was in a shock when one of my outer-circle friends had an emergency with her pregnancy, was admitted urgently and her husband (who I have met just once before in my life) just dropped their eldest on my doorstep (our kids are friends). No, he wasn't going to the hospital to be with his wife (would not be able to anyway due to the then-lockdown), he had to work and had absolutely zero idea what to do with the kid - where the school is, what class she's in, what is the story with the uniform / school bags etc. He figured out that I would somehow have a voice in my head that tells me all these things just by a virtue of being a woman.

Hmm a slightly different perspective but I think children tend to come along early in relationships and before either partner knows how the other will react to major life events because they have never before encountered them: birth, a traumatic birth, miscarriage, neonatal death, a chronically unwell infant, a work crisis or crisis of confidence, the death of a parent, etc.

Over time couples learn each other's strength and weaknesses, how to manage the other and the art of adjustment and compromise.

DH had all the signs of a workaholic before marriage. When DS was born he went into overdrive and just said "so far they money has been yours, now I have to make as much to make sure our children are totally secure. And he did and for the next 20 years or more I took on everything at home pretty much single handed but things like housework were never a problem because he never had the issue paying with paying someone else. He did always go to football on Saturdays (season ticket and corporate stuff) but I got a lie in on Saturdays and where he could he took the dc out on Sunday afternoons. It wasn't long until he took ds to football with him either.

However, he never did night wakings and I didn't want him to because I had the luxury of being a sahm and basically doing something I loved. It might have been different if ds hadn't been unwell as a baby (chronic asthma and ears) and if I hadn't given up work but at 35 I was burnt out (trading floor) and dh was pretty much just beginning the rump of his career.

I went back to work when dd started school part time at first - nearly 20 years ago now and I think that invigorated our marriage and gave me a sense of being and individual purpose. Although nothing changed at home: DC had childcare and I continued with the domestic organisation. But our individual input was always equal and that's what made it fair.

Over the years however many many women scoffed.

daffodilsandprimroses Yeah DH very much more the resin who pushed for kids in our relationship.. I stress tested the hell out of what that would look like. Even then I carried much more of the parenting load for years (he would argue not, but I worked very part time and he worked full time always....) He was/is amazing at evenings weekends, but it was my career that tanked.. Partly this was also because I retrained...so you know...
Loads of people tell me I'm lucky because he's so great. It's not luck though, I just never wanted kids enough to have them with a lazy layabout man child who'd leave me doing all the grunt work. Apart from DH I only know 2 other men who are in genuine partnership with their partners....

I suspect it is a variety of reasons

• male entitlement when you have kids they are not number one priority
• when you are in a couple with no kids there is little housework to be done unless you are exceptionally untidy. Therefore, I expect most women are actually doing the lions share before DC but don’t realise. Then when you have DC you realise the constant mess they make and everything seems to get dirty 10 times quicker.
• unconscious sexism. Men have absorbed sexist attitudes since they were born and even though they think they are not have not will be influenced.
• their mates. If their mates are lazy and or childfree they childfree then it’s often seen as ‘being under the thumb’ to be a hands on dad to actually do the non-Disney parenting and pull their weight with the housework
• society doesn’t judge men in the same way women are judged. If the house is a tip or their is an issue with the kids it is always mums fault.