Page 15 | Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

BalloonCityBaseline · 2021-03-28T01:23:39+00:00

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it? I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?) Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why? The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have? Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives. As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control. I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 30/03/2021 00:50

Wallnuts are already extortionate. Please don't tax them😳
And hummus.

HaveringWavering · 30/03/2021 01:49

[quote ClareVH]@NiceGerbil Do they really? That is so interesting. I wonder why they don’t like to cook?[/quote]
The street food in Singapore is amazing and often cooked on equipment you couldn’t have at home like charcoal grills, giant woks, steamers etc. Food courts are very sociable too. It’s not all that healthy though.

winched · 30/03/2021 01:59

Say £1.50 for a small bar of chocolate for example. Also really reinforces the idea that these items are a "treat" rather than an every day staple.

But this is missing the point completely. Slim people don't tend to see any types of foods as "treats". It's just food. So in order to tackle emotional eating issues, you're suggesting turning whole food groups into even more of an emotional "reward"

I honestly think this is half the problem. We have a warped sense of most things surrounding food.

This is a prime example from Livestrong:

Although fruit contains naturally occurring sugar, its nutritious, low-fat, high-fiber package makes it much healthier than sweets with added fats and sugars, such as chocolate candies. Although a medium-sized orange contains about 7 g more sugar than a snack-sized bar of dark chocolate, the orange provides significantly more fiber, protein and other nutrients.

A tiny bit of research reveals obesity went up as fat became demonised. So here we are supposed to think the orange is good because it's lower in fat - but low fat is con.

Then we're also supposed to think it's better because it's higher protein. Eh, what? Why not have the chocolate bar and an egg? The egg would probably have you feeling so full / sated that you wouldn't even want the chocolate bar!

I recommend watching the program Fat Fiction on Prime, which delves further into the myths that are constantly touted surrounding food, especially fat.

Knowingitsallover · 30/03/2021 02:25

Pe has non competitive options now at my ds schools back primary a fee years back and now secondary, less pe done though and smaller playgrounds at schools so less space to run and play on some schools
Infact some sporty competitiveness was totally removed which isn't ideal either of your child is a sporty kid but won't ever won the writing comp.
I was born 70's kid all through 80's we ate a lot of crap food but prob smaller portions and we were all active , mostly all walked to school had more pe than they do nowadays, had 1 hr lunch breaks where we often ran around , played out after School etc

Robbo94 · 30/03/2021 02:38

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DetMcNulty · 30/03/2021 08:31

I don't agree that being slim is necessarily hard work, or an every day slog, but for me, personally, I've avoided dieting and calorie counting at any point, I don't have scales and just go by how my clothes feel. But critically, I just don't tend to think about food in between meals, and my appetite disappears in stressful or emotional situations, which I believe is a major factor. I do think I naturally regulate without consciously thinking about it, so if I have a big dinner / night out, I just won't be as hungry the next day.

I also wouldn't rule out the impact of exercise, but I think it has to be part of day to day routine and should be something you enjoy. I do get up every morning at 5 to run, I live in Western Australia, so can be too hot if leave later and have a Ridgeback who needs a long run. I've normally done by 10000 steps by time I get my desk at work, then do a hike again at night. We also go surfing as a family, which is a major calorie burner but doesn't feel like exercise just for the sake of it. Kids here do a lot of sport at school, but there is a lot more space, most of the parks near me have out door gym equipment, there's AFL goals everywhere, well maintained skate parks, cricket nets, free tennis courts, and of course the beach is free.

AwFeebs · 30/03/2021 08:52

If anyone is genuinely interested in why people overeat I really recommend the book by Dr Andrew Jenkinson.

He talks about what the effects are of yoyo dieting and other interesting things like leptin, ghrelin and other hormones that make up our feelings of appetite and fullness. He also studies how the metabolic rate can vary hugely after dieting and that often after losing weight the sub conscious side of your brain will always try and pull you up to your previous weight.

It was a real eye opener.

It's not sorely down to willpower and calories alone.

WorraLiberty · 30/03/2021 09:11

@Quit4me

I stand by my comment about most slim (or average size within healthy weight range) women especially need to work hard to stay slim. I am just basing that on my 50+ years experience of meeting many people through my job and the fact I am a very social talkative person and make friends and aquatiences fairly easily. Of course we all know people who can eat what they want and not put weight on. But these are the minority and to be honest, in my experience many of that minority either don’t eat as much junk because they just don’t like it, or they arnt really letting on about what they eat (when you see them for a whole day for example and realise they never eat lunch or any snacks) Why wouldn’t slim / healthy weight people have to work at it? Are slim people just some special breed and temptation doesn’t apply to them? Of all the women I know who are in a healthy bmi range, there might be only 1 who doesn’t have to think about food too much. Everyone else, it a daily / weekly struggle to maintain a healthy weight. Why is that depressing? It’s a fact that cheap junk food is everywhere, every day in our faces. Of course it’s hard for both heavier and lighter people!

Why wouldn’t slim / healthy weight people have to work at it? Are slim people just some special breed and temptation doesn’t apply to them?

No, they're just people who only eat when they're hungry and stop when they aren't

Surely by your logic, the majority of the Western world before the late 70s/early 80s were just some special breed and temptation didn't apply to them either?

Not everyone eats past the hunger stage, eats their emotions, eats through boredom or because their colleagues have brought cake to work.

Yes, 64% of the adult population are overweight/obese but that doesn't mean the 36% are all living miserable lives of self-denial.

Templetrees · 30/03/2021 09:31

Not everyone eats past the hunger stage, eats their emotions, eats through boredom or because their colleagues have brought cake to work

I think this is the crux of it really.
Also the eating emotions isnt people eating broccoli, its the high fat, sugar, carbs that they eat to feel better but actually the next day the feelings are still there and so on.
Add to that the feelings created by being obese and its a spiral thats difficult to get out of.

Emeraldshamrock · 30/03/2021 09:46

I'm not sure why sufferers don't treat it as an addiction, when you need to take one day at a time and every day is a battle with all addiction.
Overeaters anonymous is set up like NA/AA no-one likes changing their addiction for reality, we all want change but ultimately are responsible for it.
It is hard it is outside the comfort zone.
These places deal with the emotional reasons, they provide a mentor.
The addicts are trapped if the crack or alcoholic have all the same reasons.
Ultimately only we can find the strength to change.
The past is never going to change, as individuals we can. NA experience here.
Bet posters will judge that.

Templetrees · 30/03/2021 09:54

Bet posters will judge that
Why?
.
I disagree with the pp who said anyone over a size 10 is not valued and I just dont see " fat shaming" that everyone immediately references if the subject of obesity comes up.
In fact its the opposite that continues the cycle.
Being obese is considered the norm, look around you.
As I said in my previous posts anyone slim in my office was bullied , their food stolen, nasty comments all the time.
"Skinny" " thin" " miserable" "bet your DH would prefer a real woman"
I think the so called " fat shaming" is self judgement and part of the addiction cycle.

Arbadacarba · 30/03/2021 10:47

Has anyone mentioned the rise of BOGOF type offers, which sometimes encourage people to buy more food than they need? That's something relatively recent.

Ohwhataprogramme · 30/03/2021 11:26

Quit4me

I'm 55 and really slim. It's not hard work but I'm full of sympathy for those to whom it is. I eat really small portions I think it's simple as that, I can eat crap but will balance out with healthy stuff. I've just made some biscuits as have got friends coming over later, I'll eat half of one (they're big) one of my friends can easily eat 3 without any problem, I would feel as sick as a dog if I did the same and would need to lie down for half an hour as my body can't deal with the sugar I guess? I don't think about food much at all, it's sort of irritating, gets in the way of my day although I do enjoy it. I appreciate I'm in the minority but I honestly don't have to work at it at all, if anything I feel self conscious because I get laughed at and people constantly telling me I eat like a sparrow blah blah. I'm lucky I have a low switch for appetite.

Duggeehugs82 · 30/03/2021 12:15

Someone knocked it on the head when they mentioned eating when u feel hunger and stopping when you are full . Surely slim people do this more naturally. Also diet culture is fact of life, im reading intuitive eating, and its all about stopping restrictions on different foods and eating when hungry and stopping when full and learning about ur bodys cues. We have lost them its too easy to go on diet to limit what u eat and then possibly binge when off the diet, its completely normal to get into the cycle of restricting and binging, i was shocked when i went to see my daughters kidney doctor. She was born with just one working kidney. She is overweight , more so about 6 months ago. The doctor told me to give her low calorie snacks, basically put her on a form of diet! Shes 2 years old! She didnt ask me what she was eating , after looking at what she ate ive come to conclusion she was still having lot of milk before bed more for habit, ive took it out and she is sliming down, she is also more active as more steady on feet. I would have hoped the doctor would have asked what her food intake was first before telling me to give her low calorie snacks.
Conversations around weight and diet need to happen.

Duggeehugs82 · 30/03/2021 12:19

@Ohwhataprogramme

Quit4me

I'm 55 and really slim. It's not hard work but I'm full of sympathy for those to whom it is. I eat really small portions I think it's simple as that, I can eat crap but will balance out with healthy stuff. I've just made some biscuits as have got friends coming over later, I'll eat half of one (they're big) one of my friends can easily eat 3 without any problem, I would feel as sick as a dog if I did the same and would need to lie down for half an hour as my body can't deal with the sugar I guess? I don't think about food much at all, it's sort of irritating, gets in the way of my day although I do enjoy it. I appreciate I'm in the minority but I honestly don't have to work at it at all, if anything I feel self conscious because I get laughed at and people constantly telling me I eat like a sparrow blah blah. I'm lucky I have a low switch for appetite.

I think this is a good point, im guessing slim people dont think about food that much, im very overweight and after reading the intuitive eating book ive started noticing when i think aboit eating and when or if i get hungry, on friday being stuck in the house with 2 small children i was thinking of food roughly every 20 minutes. There is obviously opportunity for overeating if im constantly thinking of food or what to eat. Im assumming a thin person wouldn't have that.

StylishMummy · 30/03/2021 12:26

I've had weight loss surgery. I've lost 30lb in 40 days, this option should now be offered en masse to anyone with a BMI over 40 - for this bleating about the cost, the cost to the NHS is between £4-6k depending on length of stay. The cost of T2 diabetes, obesity related cancer and the myriad of joint replacement ops needed would mean a huge saving in the long run.

I don't see that societal changes would be enough now to stem the tide of obesity. It would be an entire societal shift

winched · 30/03/2021 12:44

I think this is a good point, im guessing slim people dont think about food that much

Anecdotal, of course, but I'm "naturally" very slim and my mum and grandma are "naturally" obese.

Whenever we have these kind of discussions, the one thing that always stands out is the way we think about hunger, or deal with hunger. I don't speak for all slim people but I am hungry quite a lot, I just don't really notice it unless I'm actually thinking about it, and I don't tend to think about it a lot.

When I DO think about it, I actually probably enjoy the feeling of being mildly hungry as it seems like I'm more switched on and awake. I really hate the stuffed full feeling and actively avoid it.

I've not eaten anything today, but I didn't "realise" that until I read your post. Now I'm realising my tummy is a bit rumbly and I could eat something. I've always been this way since a child and would get reminders to eat (as well as set meal times).

I have two daughters and notice this everyday. The oldest, like me, never seems to be hungry, or if she is, she doesn't act on those cues. She eats at mealtimes (never finishes) and will rarely ask for snacks. She would struggle to pick a favourite food if you asked her.

My youngest is the exact opposite. She's constantly hungry, constantly asking for food / snacks, when is dinner going to be ready? She loves food and has too many favourites to name. I have to ask her if she is hungry or just snacky. She can also get quite emotional about it, like if dinner is going to be late she'll come through and ask 5 or 6 times getting increasingly agitated.

This is reflected in their builds, too. Oldest is really petite, and probably what healthy looked like years ago i.e you can see her ribs, and I have to take in the waist on her clothes. Youngest doesn't look overweight, but very sturdy looking and wears the next size up if I want room to grow.

Clearly this is all anecdotal but it does make me think it's not always as simple as "eat less and move more". Well, it probably IS that simple a lot of the time, but that seems to be so much easier / harder for some people than it is for others, and going by my daughters with different fathers but raised by the same parent, it seems to be more Nature than it is Nurture. Which makes you wonder how much education can really do... I know my youngest is probably going to struggle with her weight when she is older and I have no idea what I can do to really help her. For now I'm trying to teach her to recognise the difference between eating because you are hungry and eating because you are snacky, but I'm not sure if that's something that can really be learned.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 30/03/2021 12:44

I really don't think everyone over bmi 40 should be offered surgery. It just honestly doesn't seem right. Some other support? Absolutely, but throwing surgery on everyone is not ok imo.

Duggeehugs82 · 30/03/2021 12:50

@StylishMummy

I've had weight loss surgery. I've lost 30lb in 40 days, this option should now be offered en masse to anyone with a BMI over 40 - for this bleating about the cost, the cost to the NHS is between £4-6k depending on length of stay. The cost of T2 diabetes, obesity related cancer and the myriad of joint replacement ops needed would mean a huge saving in the long run.

I don't see that societal changes would be enough now to stem the tide of obesity. It would be an entire societal shift

I wouldnt actually want surgery its definitely something ive thought about, i want to meand my relationship with food. I dont want something put in me to physical stop me eating i want to get to a point where i eat when im hungry what i want and stop when im full i know this is going to be a challenge due to years and years of diet culture and conditioning but im prepared to do it, i also want to do it for my children i want them to do the same. I dont want them to have to possibility need the surgery in the future. However this is my opnion and i respect urs

Duggeehugs82 · 30/03/2021 12:55

@winched