Can we have a sensible discussion about obesity without shaming?

[BalloonCityBaseline]

I started another thread which got my thinking; why is it impossible to start any discussion about obesity without someone bringing 'will power' and 'personal choice' into it?
I always find on MN there is sympathy for those with addictions, people in poverty, people who stay in shitty relationships but there is no sympathy for those who struggle with their weight. For one, weight gain is seen as a personal struggle (you made yourself fat) rather than thought of as society's struggle (what can we do to address this and help people?)
Let's not forget that every country in the Western world is having an obesity crisis right now, yes even the Scandinavian countries and the skinny French. Also not one country has successfully managed to reduce their levels of obesity? Why?
The number one reason that we have put on weight has to be the shift to processed food and how available and cheap it is. God it's cheap! Easter eggs are now 75p in Tesco, the other day I saw a row of school kids all walking down the road munching a whole Easter egg each. But what's the alternative? That 75p would buy you absolutely nothing in the fancy health food shop across the road, and six of them would have to club together to buy one punnet of blueberries in the same Tesco so what choices do young people have?
Fat shaming just does not work. The number one reason kids are bullied in this country is because of their weight, with girls being likely to be bullied for being overweight more than any other factor. Do these kids lose weight when the bullies scream at them day after day? No, they often self harm and some end up depressed adults who take that shame with them for the rest of their lives.
As someone who has lost weight recently for the first time in their adult life I feel it coincided with a time in my life when I felt happy, busy, fulfilled, motivated and in control, which felt like the first time in my whole life. When I speak to others on the same journey they tell similar tales. The whole 'I couldn't fit into an airplane seat and everybody laughed' Take a Break narrative just doesn't ring true for so many people I know. Happiness and acceptance is much more likely to put someone in a mindset where they can change their eating habits and take control.

I'd be happy to hear other thoughts.

So this is why alcoholics get zero sympathy on MN (other than on than the alcohol support site).

I honestly didn’t mean it like that at all. Sorry if it came across that way. I’ve seen alcoholism in my family and how hard it is to beat. I just meant that it is physically possibly to never drink alcohol again but everyone has to eat. I’m not saying that stopping drinking is that easy.

It's also totally possible to cut out refined sugar and junk food, by never buying it or going down those aisles.

Yes, but that’s not the only reason people are obese. A lot of it is portion control of the foods you have in the cupboard.

I don't get this "you caan cut out alcohol, but you can't cut out food".
Alcoholics still need to drink liquids. But not alcohol.
Food addicts aren't addicted to all food either so they need to cut put the problem food, eat other.
I don't know what I am missing here.

Also, not all obese people are addicts. Some of us were just cushioning ourselves with denial.

But that's the whole point. I was challenging the idea that most slim people are constantly working at it. I just don't think that's true. And I think it's a poor message. It's not exactly encouraging is it!

Water is nice. What's wrong with water? I mean I drink 2 litres coke a day so I get it. But it's crap. The diet stuff is worse. I know it's hard. But yes it is perfectly possible to say fukit I'm having water.

And 'treat foods' is such an unhealthy attitude. I know it's how it is my husband is the same. At their house if you go for a meal there's a nod to main. No one wanted to cook it. No one wants to eat it. It's there because it's what you do to get to pudding. And there's 3 different ones and custard and squirts cream and chocolate sauce and and and...

How do you break that? It must be hard. But it's doable.

And a small bit of each pudding and a little custard is fine.

It's about I dunno. Finding the interest in the other stuff? It is a mindset thing. But it's a positive thing. Not a sentence to salad and water and no joy in food ever again.

Noted @PurpleDaisies

For me, it's been an interesting year because I've been slim all my life and couldn't for the life of me understand how someone could let themselves get obese.

But, I've seen myself starting to drink too much lately (in my own opinion) and someone else in my life has noticed it and called me on it.

I can see how someone would make the crappy food purchase as easily as I would buy a bottle of wine. Or get Deliveroo where I live.

I honestly think I am making the same bad choice with the third drink as the over eater is making with the third donut.

I was just thinking about how generally with booze it's all or nothing. So no, most people can't drink alcohol.

But then like pp I thought. Well you go to the pub. You go to the birthday bash. You go to your family. Etc etc. And you say yes I'll have liquid obv but not that one. Choose something non alcoholic. People will press you. It's just a bucks fizz. Hardly booze at all. Just have one. It's a toast. You used to be more fun. What do you mean no tiramisu? Etc etc.

No not the same but surely parallels.

If it helps to think twice befor egetting easy drliveroo, remember how much they take commission of the business🙈

@PurpleDaisies

It's also totally possible to cut out refined sugar and junk food, by never buying it or going down those aisles.

Yes, but that’s not the only reason people are obese. A lot of it is portion control of the foods you have in the cupboard.

It's easy enough to weigh out ingredients though, I do this daily for foods like pasta, rice etc. packets all have serving weights on them. If I didn't I know I would end up overweight. Some people may find it very easy to just drink one glass of wine but difficult not to overeat, some people are the opposite way. In most cases there will be an emotional element to why they find it difficult to control overindulging in food or alcohol (stress, reward, etc). The two are really not that different.

Amysteryforsaturday your post resonated with me. The sheer stress you must have been under, and you needed an adult that you could safely attach too. May you get the support you so deserve and time is on your side! You are young and that is great!

For what it is worth, I think it can be linked to childhood. It makes obvious sense.

Those crucial early years are just so crucial.

Also previous generations did not have the choices and the sheer isolation, people are brought up in small families, instead of hunter gatherer set ups, we are all social creatures. In my father's day, on a remote farm, the entire family would partake in hunting for food, growing vegetables and so on, so much healthier.

Urbanisation has a lot to answer for, if you look at how some indigenous cultures have been so damaged by western food and drink and consider the consequences, I go back to it being a cultural factor.

I don't think we all have so much of a choice. I don't think addicts always have a choice.

If you look at some very famous people who have had every resource and they still can't manage their weight then that is telling.

Lots of trauma goes through generations.

People seem to think you can just change your weight.

I got very skinny once because I was terribly terribly ill, had been hospitalised and fed by drip as could not eat, due to illness.

The number of women who I knew (but obviously did not know well enough to let them know my health) who told me I looked so wonderful with the weight off, when I look at photos from that time (and often I can't look at them) I was so malnourished just shocked me.

I also find it funny when people say you can choose to buy a healthy fruit instead of say Greggs, I think the thing is often healthy fruits just don't fill you up. If you are poor and malnourished and you are used to food with fat, salt and sugar then that is what you crave, what you are used to and what you think will filll you up quickly. It is complex, but not everyone can say cook a chicken and make it last 3 days and then say make chicken broth. It is complex, so complex.

Like many addictions I truly believe it relates to trauma, and how our brains developed when we were very young. Not everyone is loved, accepted and attached as they should be.

'Most slim people work hard every single day to keep themselves from eating junk.'

But how do you know this?

It couldn't be further removed from my experience and those of my slim friends/family.

Basically we all eat what we want, just not huge amounts of it. If everyone kept their portion sizes small (and I appreciate some people have huge appetites, so not always possible), then most people could eat whatever they wanted.

I sometimes wonder if some people convince themselves that most slim people work hard at it and are constantly denying themselves food, because it makes them feel better to think it?

I guess what I think is that I have the villification of individual obsese people, or other people with an addiction.

It isn't a one off, it is a cultural and societal problem.

I took my kids off free school dinners, as the food is completely rubbish, now if you really need those free school dinners there is no way you can just go and make a healthy packed lunch for your child, you need that money savings.

Look at what Marcus Rashford had to do.

It is a societal issue not an individual one.

Amysteryforsaturday was let down in part, because it really should take a village to raise a child but that simply is not happening.

Agree with a lot of your post snowdrops and also the PP who said essentially addiction is addiction.

For whatever reason, and whatever the thing. It's the compulsion. The trying and trying and thinking stuff sod it suddenly.

An addicted brain wants that reward. It will trick you. You will say no no and then that little voice oh go on why not just one.

Gambling, drugs, anything that gives a real hit in those pleasure centres.

So yes it's hard but it can be done. And with eating as an emotional crutch the payback (weight loss) is slow slow. That makes it hard.

'I sometimes wonder if some people convince themselves that most slim people work hard at it and are constantly denying themselves food, because it makes them feel better to think it?'

I would say not to feel better.

As a reason not to. It's so hard. Almost impossible hard. Even slim people can never relax. It's so hard who can blame anyone for not succeeding.

That's my guess anyway.

It's a very dismal message to give though. And it's not true.

@B33Fr33

A quick read and the answer is no. The judgmental of MN cannot have a discussion about obesity without reverting to type. The issue of weight brings out the daggers. In the UK there is zero respect for any woman over a size 10 from any part of UK society.

But I would also say that people have lost sight of what is normal in terms of weight / size. There was a thread recently where someone was size 12 and was asking for help to lose weight. Loads of posters said that she clearly didn't need to worry about it if she was a size 12. She was overweight. She posted her weight and pictures. That happens a lot on here re size 12/14 etc.

I struggle with my weight. I have worked through lockdown with a team who brought in "treats" every single day. I'm talking family size packs of chocolates, giant bars of chocs, tubs of celebrations, donuts, croissants. I told them I wouldnt be having any and they ramped up the pressure "oh you're not fat", "treat yourself", you have to try these "I baked them myself, I will be offended if you dont".
The pressure is relentless.
I have high BP and high cholesterol, I have told them this, and yet still they continue.
They wouldn't encourage an alcoholic to have a drink, yo me it's a similar situation.

and dont even get my started on "bake off"

@Serin

I struggle with my weight. I have worked through lockdown with a team who brought in "treats" every single day. I'm talking family size packs of chocolates, giant bars of chocs, tubs of celebrations, donuts, croissants. I told them I wouldnt be having any and they ramped up the pressure "oh you're not fat", "treat yourself", you have to try these "I baked them myself, I will be offended if you dont". The pressure is relentless. I have high BP and high cholesterol, I have told them this, and yet still they continue. They wouldn't encourage an alcoholic to have a drink, yo me it's a similar situation.

There is absolutely encouragement to drink in many work places.

@nicegerbil - thank you for your kind thoughts. I don't have an OH. I work full time- don't know how sometimes. I am with community mental health team and on meds. Being overweight is horrid and I totally empathise with everyone in this predicament. Meds don't help, but they keep me stable.

@LadyPoison

I am sure there are other factors at play too.

I have a 1940s dinner service and a modern Ikea one. The antique plates are a lot smaller than my every day service and that makes a real difference psychologically. If I use the smaller plates then my eyes tell me I've eaten a full plate of food whilst on the larger plate it looks distinctly "mean".

Clothes are also much more forgiving. As a teenager in the 1970s my jeans were corset like. They were a real struggle to get on and if I gained weight I noticed immediately! Nowadays my jeans just stretch with me and I don't have that built in early warning system. They are also much cheaper so the temptation is there to just go and buy a larger size when they do get tight.

A friend of mine recently bought an Eternal Beau dinner service from the 1980s and had been promising us all a dinner party with it. Her exact words when it arrived were "Fuck me, it's no wonder we were all thin back then!" It is really small compared to modern crockery!

I think we are in a perfect storm of large portions and "restaurant quality" food which is much richer than the plain fare of years gone by. Dr Rangan Chatterjee in his book points out that food has become something to induce bliss and he suggests picking a core set of healthy recipes and repeating them for 3 weeks to break this pattern. Reminded me of having the same foods on the same days of the week in my childhood

I am trying to lose weight myself at present so have been logging food in MFP and have been amazed that, even cooking everything from scratch and using healthy ingredients, I often don't hit protein and fibre targets without changing things up a bit. This could explain why I often feel hunger and overeat

I stand by my comment about most slim (or average size within healthy weight range) women especially need to work hard to stay slim.
I am just basing that on my 50+ years experience of meeting many people through my job and the fact I am a very social talkative person and make friends and aquatiences fairly easily.
Of course we all know people who can eat what they want and not put weight on. But these are the minority and to be honest, in my experience many of that minority either don’t eat as much junk because they just don’t like it, or they arnt really letting on about what they eat (when you see them for a whole day for example and realise they never eat lunch or any snacks)
Why wouldn’t slim / healthy weight people have to work at it? Are slim people just some special breed and temptation doesn’t apply to them?
Of all the women I know who are in a healthy bmi range, there might be only 1 who doesn’t have to think about food too much.
Everyone else, it a daily / weekly struggle to maintain a healthy weight.
Why is that depressing? It’s a fact that cheap junk food is everywhere, every day in our faces. Of course it’s hard for both heavier and lighter people!

Valencia I'm glad you are in touch with them.

Some meds make you just sort of. Not be up or down and all you want to do is sit at home which is not good for weight I've heard some contribute to weight gain as well.

Have you done a thread on here?

Thing is as with everything it's easier said than done. But it can be done. And it can be really gradual.

Anyway I wish you luck and thank you for being so open :)

I'm pretty sure I binge eat as a form of self-harming. Stopping is a challenge, I know I need to but I am weak.
I don't want to go back to other forms of self-harm instead.
I struggle with life and I feel need some kind of vice.

Why not tax the fuck out of high calorie foods like we do cigarettes?

Er... people still smoke! We prioritise spending on our addictions over spending on healthy choices, because we're addicted mentally to the 'support' and 'comfort' smoking and high-cal foods give us.

Quit4me it's not about eating what you want and not putting weight on.

It's about never having developed the association with food as comfort, temptation etc.

I do agree that lots and lots of women are preoccupied with food, weight, diets, treats etc.

As an anecdote when I was 25 I worked in an office with 4 middle aged women who worked together. I lived alone and so took advantage of the really good subsidised canteen. I'd get a proper lunch- a roast dinner or whatever.

Whenever I went to lunch with them I'd get quizzed. That was a big lunch. Was I going to eat dinner as well? What was I going to eat for dinner? Had I had breakfast? What time and on and on.

They were usually all on a diet and would have a salad or something small.

Come 3 the biscuits would come out. Ooh let's be naughty. I never wanted one. Why? I wasn't hungry. Not even 1 etc. There was a feeling I was not playing some game, almost being insulting, being odd.

Course I didn't want one cos I had a big lunch.

And all through my work life the same pattern. I'm in a diet. I've got 2 bits of lettuce for lunch. Are you really going to eat all that? Then cake biscuits etc at 3.

What is this almost ritual that seems so common?

Men don't quiz each other about what they're eating.

The preoccupation with it is really unhealthy and it's everywhere in female groups.

Because lots of high calorie foods are (in moderation) healthy, nutritious etc.

Children need calories as well. If they're running around. Because they're growing.

Tax the fuck out of cheese, bananas (?), Full fat yoghurt. No jam a long term staple and pleasure in the UK! No butter? It's way better for you than Marge. What about lamb? Pork? For roasts etc etc.

No it's not the answer.

I hate the good foods bad foods thing.

I hate removing something natural and replacing it with chemicals.

And I hate the idea that subsisting on. Certain foods only not everyone likes and I don't blame them.

The problem is the food industry has worked out what is addictive to us and is turning it out as cheap as poss with little to no nutritional value. And the government won't do anything because they're a powerful group.