To think that the EU have done more to endorse Brexit in the last 2 weeks than the UK managed in nearly 5 years

[Butterflyfluff]

I’ll start by saying I’ve never thought Brexit was in the long term interest of the UK and still don’t

But dear God, the EU’s behaviour over vaccinations and, in particular, the blatant prejudice around the Astra Zeneca vaccine has done more to endorse the UK leaving than anything that has been said in the UK before, during and after the vote

Our mortality comes fifth now behind Czechia and Slovenia, Hungary and Belgium. Pretty appalling management and many deaths were entirely preventable.
A tracking system that is just ridiculous- more expensive than a space programme and way, way more than other nations but way less effective.

@Itsalonghaul

Excess deaths have been higher in most countries thanks to covid cryh but lets not forget the average age of those dying - certainly here in the UK is 82.4 years.

This doesn't mean they were going to die anyway this year or next or anytime soon.

Life expectancy is higher than it used to be - this is a good thing.

Sounds like your view is 'over 80, who cares'.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

Although I did vote Remain, I was never a blind worshipper of the EU, but even so, one thing I read (from a German journalist) recently was a bit of an eye opener. I.e. that Ursula VDL made a pig’s ear of her former post in the German government, so Merkel saw fit to get her out of the way by shoving her off to the EU commission. As was/is apparently common practice among EU member states, according to said journalist.

Rubbishing the AZ vaccine has IMO been more down to Macron than anyone else, and in his case IMO it’s been largely out of resentment/pique/wounded French pride, because the French Sanofi vaccine that they were relying on, didn’t work, although I gather that they’re still working on it.

A French friend of a dd is so angry with him, she thinks he should be jailed.

Of course it is common practice to get rid of embarrassments by giving them a seat on the European Commission. Notable examples include Peter Mandelson and Jean Claude Junker.

As for Macron, he was an unpopular figure in France even before Covid.

@jellybellybanana

There are many posting willing U.K. to fail. It’s what fifth / sixth biggest economy

This is the attitude I'm talking about. It's not about "willing you to fail". The report I'm talking about is from UK experts, no-one else. It's about what is actually occurring, the big bad EU isn't putting any kind of spell on you. Drop the paranoia.

Lots of people have spent the last ten years (long before anyone had coined the word "Brexit") willing the UK to fail in one way or another. The BBC and the tabloids are always at it with "we're doomed" every time that there's some bad news and hushing up anything good. I can understand it from the tabloids as bad news sells but cannot fathom why the BBC sinks to their level.

There are many posting willing the UK to fail

Hmm. On a thread where the most gleeful refrains are those hopeful about the (over exaggerated) imminent demise of the EU.

Think that is called DARVO.

@MarshaBradyo

Sasha yes you make very good points.

Better collaboration and learning is much preferred to a future where countries build in protectionism into supply chains from fear of state requisition.

As far as i can tell, its the UK that has vaccine nationalism, it wants to vaccinate it own peoples above everyone else, fair enough but then moans when other countries try and take a similar attitude.

The UK has certainly been clever, it used water tight contracts to ensure it never needed to place export bans as its contracts are on a "supply us first" basis.
We then tell everyone to cooperate and that we are in an international effort but do exactly the opposite.

I also do not understand the calls for the UK to help AZ factories in EU, these are run by AZ ?, so surely they should know how to fix issues, months after going into production, they are still way behind the UK outputs.... is this becaus yet again, the UK/AZ contracts are UK first ?
Just seems immoral to send vaccine to uk to jab healthy 40 somethings, whilst death rates in europe are rocketing.

On the roll out, the way we have done that is fantastic, i had the AZ vaccine yesterday and it was seamless, very quick and zero side effects, prob because i had CV early on.... i just hope that before we start doing the younger age groups, we also allow AZ to send production to europe and beyond.

Lots of people have spent the last ten years (long before anyone had coined the word "Brexit") willing the UK to fail in one way or another.

I have no desire to see people thrown into poverty, to have their businesses and jobs fail, to see reduced educational opportunities for our young and our rural economies ruined.

Sadly, that is exactly what Brexit is doing before our eyes and it’s being hidden in propaganda about the vaccine whilst hiding the rest of the catastrophic management. Look at our export figures. Look at the reduced number of healthcare and other professionals choosing to work here.

JasJas no you need to go back to individual contracts

U.K. and AZ is separate to EC and AZ

Read the contracts online and you’ll see U.K. hasn’t done anything wrong

Production was slower in EU factories that is the issue

Go to the source rather than speculate with a skewed perception

So, I think the issue for the EU member states is that other wealthy countries have implemented protectionist measures. The US implemented the export ban (again notwithstanding the distribution of a vaccine they are not using themselves), and the UK used contract law to stop AZ manufactured in the UK being exported anywhere until the entirety of the population is vaccinated. The EU didn't employ such protectionisms resulting in claims that 77 million vaccine doses have been exported from the MS's since December. Including, 22 million to the UK who it seems won't allow a single one to be exported from theirs. So, in the UK, there's 30% chance your jab came from EU. Not a single jab has gone the other way because the gov't agreement with OU barred it until it's citizens are catered for first.

Yet there are cries of foul play if the EU even considers adopting a later, and an overall less stringent, safety net for their own citizens now. The proportionate and reciprocity element is certainly less stringent than the UK and US measures. Doesn't ban exports to countries in greater need, and who also don't have export bans in place.

That is the problem some countries employ protectionist measures. Others will start doing the same thing. It becomes tit for tat.

All these protectionisms seem a good thing initially. The UK gov't thought so. The US administration thought so. The EU MS seem to think so now too, albeit with less stringent measures. But what if China or India banned exports from their territories? So many raw materials, never mind part finished or finished products come from there. We'd all be screwed.

@Cailleach1

So, I think the issue for the EU member states is that other wealthy countries have implemented protectionist measures. The US implemented the export ban (again notwithstanding the distribution of a vaccine they are not using themselves), and the UK used contract law to stop AZ manufactured in the UK being exported anywhere until the entirety of the population is vaccinated. The EU didn't employ such protectionisms resulting in claims that 77 million vaccine doses have been exported from the MS's since December. Including, 22 million to the UK who it seems won't allow a single one to be exported from theirs. So, in the UK, there's 30% chance your jab came from EU. Not a single jab has gone the other way because the gov't agreement with OU barred it until it's citizens are catered for first.

Yet there are cries of foul play if the EU even considers adopting a later, and an overall less stringent, safety net for their own citizens now. The proportionate and reciprocity element is certainly less stringent than the UK and US measures. Doesn't ban exports to countries in greater need, and who also don't have export bans in place.

That is the problem some countries employ protectionist measures. Others will start doing the same thing. It becomes tit for tat.

All these protectionisms seem a good thing initially. The UK gov't thought so. The US administration thought so. The EU MS seem to think so now too, albeit with less stringent measures. But what if China or India banned exports from their territories? So many raw materials, never mind part finished or finished products come from there. We'd all be screwed.

No this is skewed too

Go to the contracts that state first AZ 300m come from EU factories. It is this slow production which is the issue

Also separate Pfizer delivery from AZ delivery to U.K.

20m are Pfizer and EC has no issue with this as Pfizer is delivering to EU

I think the principle still remains the same. The EU member states weren't signatories to that contract between the UK and OU/AZ. It still holds that the EU member states are the only ones without protectionist measures in place and have allowed exports from their territory.

I think that the Pfizer example is good. The German gov't supported the development of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. Yet didn't employ protectionist measures like the British gov't did with the OU/AZ vaccine. If they had done so, maybe all the vaccines Pfizer is producing would be prioritising Germany. Maybe as an EU member state they would have shared with other member states. So those 20 million into the UK wouldn't have happened.

Countries seem to be starting to think about prioritising their own populations at this stage, if they haven't already done so like the US and the UK. Berating other countries for not upholding free trade while throwing up barriers to protect your own won't wash.

Still remain optimistic that it will all be worked out. Although, people in vulnerable groups in some countries will die while less vulnerable groups in others will get vaccinated. April and May to get through. It seemed that there were less deaths in Summer of last year, so maybe June, July and August will improve the situation and it is to be hoped that measures will have been taken to ensure the most vulnerable are vaccinated going into Autumn. Whatever country they live in.

Also consider that if the first 300m EU AZ were to be supplied to EU that if EU factories had been fast and us slow we’d likely be in the same position (depending on contract for that part)

If you listen to MEPs speak on it they recognise production is a big issue and they underestimated how long it would take, and lost a month or even more. It’s on R4 - a good piece with Belgian MEP.

The clause that counts is where it comes from.

300m from EU then go to U.K. AZ for next 100m

That’s the key part

@Cailleach1

So, I think the issue for the EU member states is that other wealthy countries have implemented protectionist measures. The US implemented the export ban (again notwithstanding the distribution of a vaccine they are not using themselves), and the UK used contract law to stop AZ manufactured in the UK being exported anywhere until the entirety of the population is vaccinated. The EU didn't employ such protectionisms resulting in claims that 77 million vaccine doses have been exported from the MS's since December. Including, 22 million to the UK who it seems won't allow a single one to be exported from theirs. So, in the UK, there's 30% chance your jab came from EU. Not a single jab has gone the other way because the gov't agreement with OU barred it until it's citizens are catered for first.

Yet there are cries of foul play if the EU even considers adopting a later, and an overall less stringent, safety net for their own citizens now. The proportionate and reciprocity element is certainly less stringent than the UK and US measures. Doesn't ban exports to countries in greater need, and who also don't have export bans in place.

That is the problem some countries employ protectionist measures. Others will start doing the same thing. It becomes tit for tat.

All these protectionisms seem a good thing initially. The UK gov't thought so. The US administration thought so. The EU MS seem to think so now too, albeit with less stringent measures. But what if China or India banned exports from their territories? So many raw materials, never mind part finished or finished products come from there. We'd all be screwed.

Yes, we would!

The UK has certainly been clever, it used water tight contracts to ensure it never needed to place export bans as its contracts are on a "supply us first" basis

It is hardly the fault of the UK that they are clever, and the EU is not

lemon If you are honest about the fact that you live in the UK, you sound very anti British so I am less convinced with the 'our' this and the 'our' that. Assuming you are, then congratulations! You are the last die hard remoaner standing with the whipped up, frenzied doom mongering and it is all going to hell in a handcart.

No one else actually thinks that anymore, but you crack on.

If the set up is you get what you produce the fault can only lie with the area that did not supply to its own region fast enough, due to slow production

Slow production is an understatement, the plant in the Netherlands is STILL waiting for authorisation, and people wonder why the EU Commission are useless. We are over a year into the pandemic, you would think someone somewhere would hurry it along, given the fact there are people dying everywhere, but no.

Yes, the new narrative is developing that the EU is naive and trusting (not incompetent, not at all) and the UK is nationalistic and grasping.
Just watching this unfold is amazing

@MaMaLa321

Yes, the new narrative is developing that the EU is naive and trusting (not incompetent, not at all) and the UK is nationalistic and grasping. Just watching this unfold is amazing

Incredible isn’t it

Imagine this site if situation was reversed

The latest to start looking at protectionism and exports bans is India. According to The Times;

India has imposed a de facto ban on vaccine exports as it puts its own needs first.

The Serum Institute of India (SII), the largest maker of vaccines in the world, has been told to halt exports until it can cover what India needs, according to sources in the Indian health ministry and Unicef.

So some people think that protectionism is clever? Then why all the invective against countries which implement such measures to safeguard their own populations like the UK and US have.

I really wish the EU had got their arses into gear and been less “naive” ( read complacent). Then they would have set up more manufacturing capabilities in the EU of the AZ vaccine like the U.K. has done and would be getting more supplies to satisfy their contracts now. They were risk averse as Macron has said. They should have “ shot for the moon” as Macron has also said. The U.K. did - “moonshot” anyone
The issue is that some things would have failed and money could have been wasted and the member states had to also be on board with that possibility. In that sense, it is difficult for the EU as it always is when risking other people’s money.
Maybe the EU needs a sink fund for pandemics that countries pay into like an insurance policy so they have access to a big pot in exactly these circumstances.

@Cailleach1

The latest to start looking at protectionism and exports bans is India. According to The Times;

India has imposed a de facto ban on vaccine exports as it puts its own needs first.

The Serum Institute of India (SII), the largest maker of vaccines in the world, has been told to halt exports until it can cover what India needs, according to sources in the Indian health ministry and Unicef.

So some people think that protectionism is clever? Then why all the invective against countries which implement such measures to safeguard their own populations like the UK and US have.

The U.K. has not done this.

As I keep stating the first 300m are to come from EU - their slow production is the issue

If you are so intent in seeing it one way at least read the contracts

AZ has set up dedicated manufacturing in regions all over the world to supply those regions on licence. That’s the opposite of “protectionism” imo.

The EU have backed down because to repurpose vaccine is effectively a breach of international law. They would be sued, not just by Britain, but by Canada, Australia, Mexico...

They were at least a bit arrogant with AZ, assuming that they could use British production facilities to a priority schedule, which were outside their customs jurisdiction, but did not invest in any way in the production and manufacturing in EU MS. Halix is still not licensed.

The EU also do not have anything to offer in vaccine diplomacy (cousin of vaccine nationalism). Countries with the intellectual property and facilities are in a better position to get more deals with others by offering mutual benefit.

What does the EU bring to the world? Unlawful rules designed to take vaccine, and potentially further powers to take patents and IP.

They aren’t naive, they have been stupid.